Fighting?

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:24 am

Ok just wanted to see how many of you think in your opinion fighting has changed? It seems to me that a lot of people feel that traditional martial arts need to be updated and modernized but my question is why? Did a man fighting another man really change or something and nobody sent me the memo lol?

The old masters who invented and passed on the style of combat to us didn't overlook anything in my opinion. I think they accounted for just about every human attack when it comes to man against man so why is it that you find so much change and deviation and non trust when it comes to the traditional arts?

Why does breathing and so on and so forth become a question to be put under a microscope when the people who invented these arts invented them in times of struggle and of war. They tested them under real fire and under the real stress of life struggles and not on a padded mat in an arena in front of parents for trophies and medals.

Can you really learn and benefit from something if you question the very methods you're supposed to be learning?
Should you call on modern experts who mostly speculate on what is effective in todays world? What makes todays world different from the world of the masters who invented these arts and why?

I don't know but honestly and truthfully I don't personally get it and never have in this area. Do you go to college and tell the teacher you're going to change his course to your personal view of his teaching? I really feel that having questions is alright but I think you must find solid reasons for change. I also feel there must be a degree of trust and loyalty to another who is sharing an art with you in order to gain anything from it.

Who knows lol ... I know the question of what is traditional will pop up but I just don't get all the changes.

Jeff

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:42 am

I know breathing is a hot topic also lol and forgive me but you know recently Higa sensei said at the seminar that in his belief the proper way to breath was the method John Giacoletti described and how we have always breathed also by breathing after the strike is completed and not during the strike.

Who knows and don't hate me folks but this is what Higa sensei relays and believes is proper also and that's his view and not to be disrespectful but it seems most of the Okinawan masters believe in breathing this way.

I respect your way but for me I will always go with what comes from Okinawa when it comes to Uechi. Call me a robot and joke away lol but this is my way and will always be my way to trust in the land and the teachers where the art was born.

I can see the pictures popping up now of bloated cheeks and all those things but hey I'm going with the Okinawans when it comes to their art so sue me lol..I will be tssting and holding my breath with complete pride lol until my strike is retracted lol..

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:13 am

Jeff, traditional martial arts provide a very strong foundation for someone heading for Shodan. After that, it's time to find yourself. If you plan on being a teacher, it's good to specialize in traditions, if not, you'll find that traditional karate can be alot like religious dogma.

But thats a while from now.... keep training and let us know how your doing. When the time comes, i'll revive this thread with a post that says "I told you so"... hah hah

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:31 am

LOL Tony I just have to admit I feel bad for the folks like John Giacoletti who present views from their teaching like the teaching he recieves from a very talented and competent sensei like Ric Martin who was a world champion himself at one time.

I just feel he presents a minority view on the forums at least and sometimes it becomes like a joke or something to ya know criticize overly.I don't know I do believe we can disagree for sure but we all get caught up in it sometimes when we differ and then it almost seems like we put each others ways down or dismiss them.

I just wish and I'm guilty too that I could see a differing opinion and only say to the person alright man that's not how I see it but god bless ya if you see it that way and more power to ya lol.

It seems always like it's Okinawa versus America or this versus that and I get caught in it too. I wish it was just always like alright you do it this way so fine and you're not a fool or a joke for doing it that way but here is my way and I'm not a fool or joke either ya know lol.

Who knows but I think there is something to be said and something to be proud of to be loyal to a teacher you believe in and if you don't have that or hadn't found that or believe in something else that is cool also.

And not making the teacher more than human just having faith and trust in what you're learning. Who knows

Jeff

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:10 pm

Ok just wanted to see how many of you think in your opinion fighting has changed? It seems to me that a lot of people feel that traditional martial arts need to be updated and modernized but my question is why? Did a man fighting another man really change or something and nobody sent me the memo lol?

...so why is it that you find so much change and deviation and non trust when it comes to the traditional arts?

Why does breathing and so on and so forth become a question to be put under a microscope when the people who invented these arts invented them in times of struggle and of war. They tested them under real fire and under the real stress of life struggles and not on a padded mat in an arena in front of parents for trophies and medals.

Can you really learn and benefit from something if you question the very methods you're supposed to be learning?

-Has fighting tradition changed?
For one on one empty handed combat, no. However the legal environment and society have changed quite a bit. There are many threads in the archives on these topics.

-Why is there change? Because humans evolve their understanding over time. As Newton said "If I am able to see further it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." At a certain point in training trust is needed. But after the fundamentals are developed each student must seek their own understanding. "Seek not to be like your teachers, seek what you teachers sought."

-Why do things like breathing get put under a microscope? Because our understanding of human physiology has grown extensively in past two hundred years. It would be an injustice to ignore new knowledge just because it isn't old knowledge. At the end of the day we may come full circle in our understanding, but if we do it will be because we understand both the traidition and the function based on what we have learned.

-Can we really learn if we question? Socrates admonished us to question everything all the time. Are you really learning if you are only following blindly? Faith and trust - yes - to a point. Then you must own your training and not train because so and so said so, but because you have a full understanding.

What we're talking about here is called in Japanese traditions Shuhari. Shu, ha, ri.
Imitation, Separation, Reunification.

http://judo1.net/ju01004.htm

The author in the above article finishes with separation. And I disagree. If knowledge is a tree - an the outermost branches and leaves the newest knowledge then I firmly believe that with complete understanding you do not only embrace the small leaves and branches at the edge. With full understanding you also embrace the trunk, the heartwood, the roots, and the earth below.

To honor our teachers we start by sitting at their feet and we should end by standing on their shoulders.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:38 pm

Why does breathing and so on and so forth become a question to be put under a microscope when the people who invented these arts invented them in times of struggle and of war. They tested them under real fire and under the real stress of life struggles and not on a padded mat in an arena in front of parents for trophies and medals.

I'm not so sure that most arts were developed in or for combat. Many reasons for the development of the arts including dueling, sport and self improvement.

I do believe even if an art was developed for combat that it's focus would change as more and more people learned it who would never see combat. Things get dropped, things get added and things get changed to make it more relevant to the current group of practitioners.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:23 pm

I don't think the TMA's need to be up dated. They are great.
I just recommend training out side of the box as well. My first instructor recommends borrowing what ever works. I always thought it was good advice.

I don't think anyone need dismantle what they do. Some may wish to add another layer to their training, go deeper as some say. This depth can be discovered from inside or out side of the system.

When the dust settles and all discussions end one fact remains. People fight pretty much fight the way they always have, and the human body works the same way it always has.

So if it works it works and if it doesn't it doesn't. I think if folks are happy with what they do and are confident it will do what they require then they should stick with it.

At the end of the day an individual must decide what it is they seek and decide if they can meet those goals by sticking with one art, they then must decide if they believe their goals can be achieved by studying an art as it evolves or by studying it as itthey believe it was at some fixed point in time. (I believe preservations and evolutionist schools of thought and approaches exist in most martial systems)

Once a practioner decides what path they wish to follow they must reexamine their progress and from time to time re evaluate their goals.

If their goals are not being met, another art or method sometimes is the solutions. Sometimes a new sensei might be the solution.

The pursuit of ones goals is a personal path. Reworking Uechi .... That’s a tough question. I'd suggest that changing Uechi to meet ones needs might upset the preservationist camps. Adding the odd drill to ones training to meet ones goals might keep all camps happy.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:35 pm

Jeff, have you defined any short term goals? What about long term (like after you make Shodan)?

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:43 pm

Well Tony I sincerely want to keep training and work hard and keep learning then hopefully keep training and help younger students at our school once I make Shodan. Doctor Rinchuse has a son about the age of eighteen who is a very talented sandan right now so maybe even long term if he decides to carry on his fathers school you know way down the road I'd like to keep training with him and help him with the school.

If he moves or takes another path in life ya know long term then I'll want to keep training and maybe open my own little traning group if nobody else from our group is around to train with but If they are I really want to stay and help out.

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:48 pm

Any specific training goals though besides working with kids?

I like working with Kids too... Jon Cieri had like 30 of them about 20 minutes from here. I used to go down there and work out with them... a few times I got the class to myself and instead of doing karate, we played Dodge Ball in our Gi's in the gym!!! HAH HAH HAH!

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:17 am

I have no goals of becoming like a pro fighter or anything I just want to keep training as I am hard and help out at the school. We don't have very many kids to be honest we have really only about three or four because as you know many kids aren't really ready for Uechi-ryu and the training we go through such as conditioning and sparring and things of that nature.

I've found only a special little group of tough and dedicated youngsters are willing to go so long with junior ranks and go through the endurance and conditioning it takes to be involved in uechi.

Heck as for me I have no specific goals but when I show up its no talking and down to business and when I leave I'm soaked in sweat like I took a shower so that's the way we really do it and ya know we make sure we use our time there for work only.

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:22 am

Good man Jeff!!!!

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:25 am

Jeff

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:09 pm

I did the Kids class for Doug here in Roanoke for a month while he coached soccer.

It takes special people to teach kids. Each class is about 50% getting them to pay attention and 50% getting them to do what you say.

If I ever had a karate school or club I'd only teach ages 13 and up. It would probably be just a club as children seem to keep comercial schools open.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:56 pm

Thats why you gotta play doge ball in your Gi's!

Besides, it's fun beaning an 8 year old in the head and knocking her over like a bowling pin!

Kids are like weebles! They can take it!!!