Preventing tennis elbow from sanchin thrusts?

[Rob Kolenc]

Hi, I've been working on improving the speed and power of my sanchin thrusts. Speed and power is up, but I'm getting problems with my elbows. Any recommendations on what I'm doing wrong, or how to prevent this? (Other than I should take a few years off my age - 45).

I was once told that if I rotated my hand past the normal horizontal position at the end of the strike, that it would help, but it isn't.

Thanks!

Rob

[JimHawkins]

You either need to pull the strike by not allowing it to reach full extension or learn to turn off the muscles that fire the strike before the arm reaches full extension. In the first method, more used in karate, the elbow joint never gets near full extension so the elbow is safe. In the second method, which is more difficult, turning off the muscles allows the arm to fully extend, which is straight, like a ballistic projectile, not hyper-extended, which is not straight <think rock and string, where the arm is the string and the hand or fist is the rock> until the ligaments stop the forward motion, then the strike snaps and the arm retracts by itself.

The problem occurs when you leave these muscles on after full extension is reached, meaning the elbow joint gets past straight to hyper-extended then you get the injury. One cause of this is the Western mind not thinking “release” in the strike and instead thinking of DRIVING the strike into a target like a dull knife into a cement wall. Allowing the strike to fire and relax will aid in power transfer and help to prevent hyper-extension and injury.

[Guest]

Rob I believe rolling the arm over engages the upper traps to help with stopping the strike. I started using this method because of rotor cuff tears. It has allowed my shoulders to begin to heal .

I believe bicept curls might help reduce the hyperextension of the elbow you are experiencing while striking.

Hopefully Bill will comment on your post. He's the resident biomechanic

[Guest]

U hurt my elbow really bad once doing that Sanseirui bird-beak technique. Took 6 months to heal.

[MikeK]

Just getting back from my elbow injury from a badly done shuto against a heavy bag. If doing something full speed and full power is hurting you, back off, slow down and work on doing the technique properly. Bill can give some things to do to help it, he did for me and it worked.

[Bill Glasheen]

Part of the problem with punching air is that you need to condition your biceps stretch reflex. This will happen naturally over time, just as conditioning your hamstring stretch reflex prevents knee hyperextensions when you kick air.

For therapy, see if you can find a machine that works supination and pronation. This gets to the areas afflicted by "karate elbow."

Meanwhile... It sounds strange, but the last thing you want to do is to slow your thrust down. Either do it faster, or do it very slowly. You want to condition your biceps as well as your triceps, and then have the biceps stretch reflex developed. That stretch reflex - which happens faster than anything you can do consciously - is proportional to the change in lengthening (dL/dt if you've ever had calculus). So the faster you lengthen that biceps, the quicker and stronger its "rescue" response.

My recommendation is to rest more between karate days, and do the supination/pronation therapy if you can. Ice on the afflicted areas (after training) and maybe some ibuprofen won't hurt. Also if you lift weights, make sure you are doing an equal amount of pulling vs. pushing exercises. Balance is the key.

Your reflexes will naturally develop if you give them time and you have a good instructor. The body adjusts pretty powerfully if you give it a chance. If you make any drastic change in your training routine and don't give your body a chance to compensate and adjust, you risk these kinds of injuries.

- Bill

[MikeK]

It sounds strange, but the last thing you want to do is to slow your thrust down. Either do it faster, or do it very slowly.

Bill, why faster or very slow, why not somewhere in the middle?

[Bill Glasheen]

The faster the thrust, the faster the biceps stretch reflex. If you go just a bit slower, it might not kick in. If you start thinking too much and hesitating and "pulling" the punch, you're just going to screw up all the mechanics.

It's best just to proceed slowly, relax, and let the body do its thing. Don't change routines too much over time. Balance the training. Rehab the injuries. Things will settle out.

I can show you this if you wish, Mike. The harder I try to hyperextend my arm, the quicker my biceps unconsciously catches it. I consciously have to relax the biceps after the thrust to get the extra ten degrees of extension. In fact, part of the value of Sanchin training is that it naturally keeps the BG from quickly applying arm hyperextension techniques. Over time, your body develops natural, unconscious responses to these assaults on various joints.

- Bill

[gmattson]

I've always thought one of the reasons for keeping your shoulders down, (pulling down with the "lats", not tightening muscles surrounding shoulders) is to protect the shoulder and elbow joints.

This is a very natural effort on my part and allows me to punch full out without any strain or noticeable trauma to the joints in one's arm. Let your lats relax while punching and the arm extends to where their is no more "shock absorption" around the joints.

I'm sure Bill will be able to explain this better... all I know is that it works and the action involved in the punch is developed in Sanchin kata.

[CANDANeh]

Having suffered from this problem in past with right elbow I can relate.
Slowing down the trust (plus work ergonomics) were likely the culprits and hyperextension had little or nothing to do with it according to Physiotherapist. It is like throwing something and changing your mind last second as it was put to me, strains and tears soft tissue. Like falling it`s the sudden stop that hurts. Fast accelerating thrust rarely bothers that arm even going full power with "natural recoil" even though scar tissue exist.
Pays to find a good Physiotherapist and show what you do, some even join the club

[MikeK]

I can show you this if you wish, Mike. The harder I try to hyperextend my arm, the quicker my biceps unconsciously catches it. I consciously have to relax the biceps after the thrust to get the extra ten degrees of extension. In fact, part of the value of Sanchin training is that it naturally keeps the BG from quickly applying arm hyperextension techniques. Over time, your body develops natural, unconscious responses to these assaults on various joints.

Bill, I just got back from AFF where I tried somethings out. When doing a relaxed sanchin thrust it goes out fine and I don't feel anything in my elbow, and it's the same if I make a fist at the very end. But when I do a zuki with the muscles tensed I feel a zing in the elbow without even throwing anything too fast or hard.
I don't know if my little experiment means anything or not but I figured I'd pass it on.

[Bill Glasheen]

This is consistent with what I am saying, Mike. Let the arm go out relaxed and with speed.

There are two sensor systems involved here:

Muscle spindle (of the biceps) - This is responsive to active or passive stretch, as well as the rate (phasic) and length (tonic) of stretch.

Golgi tendon organs (of the triceps, and to some extent the biceps) - This is sensitive to stretch of the tendon due to muscular contraction and causes the muscle to relax.

When you thrust out hard, eventually the muscle spindle fibers of the biceps causes what is commonly known as the stretch reflex in that muscle. You will get a sudden and unconscious powerful contraction of the biceps. There is a simultaneous reciprocal inhibition of the triceps partly by the biceps muscle spindle fibers, and partly due to the twanging of the triceps Golgi tendon organ when the biceps asserts itself.

These are preprogrammed motor patterns or nerve muscle patterns. They do not require voluntary activation. They do however require some training to accentuate them, and some conditioning to make both the muscles work properly. The more you try to make it a conscious thing, the more you screw up what your body will do naturally if you work up to it with patience, diligence, and a good instructor watching your form.

Once you hurt yourself, the situation may require a bit of rehab to get everything back into proper specs.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

What I have found to be the most common cause of elbow problems in a Sanchin thrust is a person throwing the strike towards the centre line and then as the strike is extended it is not focused at the centre line but towards the outer side of the body.

When this is occurring in a particular manner as the extension of the arm happens the arm “snaps” from the centre line to the outer edge and hyperextends the elbow and causes the problems.

I would recommend video taping your Sanchin with a close up of the strike from the front and see if this is what is happening.

[Rob Kolenc]

What I have found to be the most common cause of elbow problems in a Sanchin thrust is a person throwing the strike towards the centre line and then as the strike is extended it is not focused at the centre line but towards the outer side of the body.

When this is occurring in a particular manner as the extension of the arm happens the arm “snaps” from the centre line to the outer edge and hyperextends the elbow and causes the problems..

Yup! That's me.

By the way, this forum is really helpful. Uechi is very, very thin in the Vancouver area these days. We're going to try to get it going again. Its great to be able to plug in and get these ideas from all of you. Thanks.

[Guest]

Uechi is very, very thin in the Vancouver area these days. We're going to try to get it going again

Good on ya! There was no Uechi when I lived in the lower mainland. Barry's not so far away. Hope you guys spread the word!