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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: on the path.
This grew out of some posts by Bronze & Stryke, we want to discuss how you think Uechi stances and techniques protect (or not) the head.

I'll start the train rolling with some comments, which believe me, are not "expert" by any stretch.
My first comment is that I don't believe Sanchin stance, or the variants of it, are "techniques".
I read comments about people wading in, using Sanchin stance like a robot and getting clocked in the head, Bronze brought this up.

My "take" is this:
Sanchin should be loose, stealthy and predatory. An attacking stance, not a defensive stance.
It should be a "platform" FROM WHICH one can launch the counter-assaults or "defensive" techniques, but Sanchin stance itself is NOT the defense.

When we do Kata and testing, I know the stance is tested for integrity.
This puzzles me in terms of what I think the stance is FOR.
Perhaps it misleads some into thinking that "standing in Sanchin" creates some magical "zone of safety" which no punch or kick can penetrate.
I've never been taught this,and don't believe it.
To me, Sanchin testing is more about testing for your ability to "root" and stand firm, and a test of your balance under pressure, and a psychological test as well.
You're alone and the whole school is watching.

For a "square-on" stance, Sanchin does a reasonable job of protecting all the areas of the body, but it is by no means perfect -- simply because no stance is.
Shotokan has a distinctive stance. Jeet Kune Do has another. Tae Kwon Do has yet another, and so does boxing.

The stance is only the means to deploy the countermeasures. The stance itself has no magical powers.
In Uechi we put a lot of emphasis on perfecting the stance, I think this leads some into a way of thinking that "If I just stand in Sanchin I can't be hurt" or something along that line.
--------------------------------------
NOW: about protecting the head...
I have personally seen a number of higher-level UechiKa get into a sparring situation and immediately do one of two things:
1: Assume a boxing stance, forearms high.
2: Assume a stretched-arm stance which is not Sanchin but more of a "dropped-hands" stance. This is the greater problem.

Sanchin is a CLOSE DISTANCE stance and many sparring scenarios tempt us all to extend our personal zone, so we stretch out our arms, thereby dropping them, thereby inviting a head shot.

I truly believe that Sanchin, with its 45-degree angles of arm position, is the best compromise between protecting the face and protecting the upper-level torso: a stance you can "work FROM".

BUT: if you get tempted into stretching, your hands will drop, and your head is wide open.
There are numerous head-protecting techniques in Uechi, but they all assume you are in a REAL Sanchin stance, and CLOSE enough to use them.

Hands too high: ribs/solar plexus/guts open to kicks.
Hands too low: head open to shots.

So, 45 degrees with the elbows tucked in seems to be a good solution.
But, it's only one part of the solution.
------------------------------------------
All the techniques that Sanchin "facilitates": the Waukes, the wrist blocks, the Hirakens, the shin-jams, the fast front kicks, all that stuff is the REAL POINT of the Sanchin stance, in my mind.
Standing in Sanchin just allows you to deploy all that stuff, other than that," standing in Sanchin" does diddly except get you hit...in the head!


Remember: a perfect statue of Kanbun Uechi standing in Sanchin could be knocked over easily by anyone.

OK y'all, rip me up & roll the train!

NM (ducking for cover)!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:59 am 
I agree totally Neil :) I personally would pull it higher in real life though , I was taught the closer one gets the higher the hands ....

I beleive dropping the elbows down onto attacks good enough for covering the body , if your giving them enough to worry about ..... the knees and elbows move up or down filling the gap very thai like IMHO

I think as a range stance Sanchin isnt Ideal , but what is . I think it`s more a grappling seizing striking stance , hence the facing .

I also think Uechi should be very crouched in Real life , very grappler ish , many may disagree .

Dropping and extending the arms is point fighting territory , nuff said .

Good post , and even though I criticise and explore what i see as holes In uechi doesnt mean I dont love it :)

just my method of learning ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
My Kiwi friend, I always learn from your honest input and someday we'll jam together, I hope!
There is SO much to learn...

NM

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:11 am 
Goes both ways Neil :) , look forward to it 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:36 am 
Great post Neil.

“My "take" is this:
Sanchin should be loose, stealthy and predatory. An attacking stance, not a defensive stance.
It should be a "platform" FROM WHICH one can launch the counter-assaults or "defensive" techniques, but Sanchin stance itself is NOT the defense.”

I think I might make “Sanchin should be loose, stealthy and predatory” my new tag line – love it.

:D “When we do Kata and testing, I know the stance is tested for integrity”

Hard testing really is just a show for demos. Soft testing is what pushes the limits of Sanchin and if it is not loose and stealthy :wink: you are toast.

My Sanchin stance is a heretic version so I won’t say much other than it seems to work and maintain the basics of the strengths of Sanchin.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:42 am 
I have an old Mas Oyama book.in it he talks of ensin and Birin..that is( I think :? ) dragon tail and pinwheel, the hands either circle in front of you or spiral back.they form a shield in front of you and also a method of grabbing and controlling the attackers hands and arms..that is what I think Uechi should do...............the main stance in Hakka mantis is like Sanchin, but with the arms held a bit higher :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:52 pm 
Marcus, I agree with you 100%. You can take Uechi ryu and make it into anything you want... beauty is strictly in the eye of the beholder. To heck with them I say!


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 Post subject: Great post Neil..
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:07 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Couldn't of said it any better...

GEM
-----------------
"If it ain't Uechi - - - it must be your fault!"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:59 pm 
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Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Quote:
Hard testing really is just a show for demos. Soft testing is what pushes the limits of Sanchin and if it is not loose and stealthy you are toast.


Hard testing *****.

I had my knee kicked the last time it was done to me.(a GD powerful hard kick I might add) Oh.. of course I'm supposed to just look straight ahead while I get pummeled by a person I hardly know. Then when having my back leg "tested" it was kicked out to the side... how F'ing dirty And then get told my sanchin was dissapointing by the senior instructor.

What on earth did that accomplish other than to make me feel like crap?

nice guys huh?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:05 pm 
Quote:
I had my knee kicked the last time it was done to me.(a GD powerful hard kick I might add) Oh.. of course I'm supposed to just look straight ahead while I get pummeled by a person I hardly know. Then when having my back leg "tested" it was kicked out to the side... how F'ing dirty And then get told my sanchin was dissapointing by the senior instructor.


Jesus.... where do these kinds of people come from? Why do they decide to join the ranks of Uechi Ryu? What is it about this style that attracts these kinds of degenerates?

This is obviously the scenario i've been warning people to watch out for. If you see this in your dojo, leave.. because it will only get worse. Oh, and please let us all know about it....


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:21 pm 
It's not just Uechi.there are a lot of folks who get a buzz about being superior and telling you that you are cr*p. Truth is it is usually them.
I just packed in the Tai-chi because the bloke teaching it basically said the same thing to me :lol:
then emailed me to see if I was going on a course with his instructor :lol: :lol: ....I told him to shove his TC......it's a buyers market now for MA's :lol: so you can choose who you want to teach you..good ole western capitalism :P .non of this great sensei mumbo jumbo :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:26 pm 
NO MORE!

I will not tolerate this kind of schit any longer. When I get back to Uechi Ryu, if someone pulls a stunt like that on me, I will knock them on their ass and split their head open with an axe kick! I encourge anyone else to do the same. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUT UP WITH SCHIT LIKE THAT!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:56 pm 
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And to have it done by someone you are handing your hard earned pay to.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
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Location: Virginia
Yep.

I've moved on.

Not an easy thing to do after 4 wasted years, but as they say it's better to spend 10 years looking for the right teacher than studying 10 under a sh*tty one.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:41 pm
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Location: Coral Spring, FL
Benz, sorry to here about your experience. I think the sanchin testing needs to left to people who actually know how it should be tested.


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