Street use for sanchin thrusts?

[Rob Kolenc]

Hi, I've been wondering about this for a long time. We have sanchin thrusts throughout many of our katas and when I throw them, the spear hand strikes are typically aimed to the centre of the chest.

Now assuming you don't condition your finger tips by pounding into buckets of gravel or into cement blocks... (I'm a muscian so that kind of conditioning would pretty well end my music hobby)...

What can you use that thrust for?

Would any of you use it as a strike to the chest or ribs? Or, would you just use it for nice soft tissue like the neck?

Thanks,

Rob

[Chris H.]

The soft stuff
What do you mean you don't pound your fingertips into rocks and other hard things all day?

[Bill Glasheen]

Rob

I've always thought of the sanchin nukite as a metaphor which allows us to practice the vital ingredients of classic Uechi Ryu hand techniques. The goal is to throw the nukite as if you are hitting with it. That means you need to relax some muscles, but keep others firm. And that is the essence of the "hard soft" form we practice.

As for actually using it... Well other than opening the coconuts I eat every morning (yea, that's the ticket...), my favorite literal application is to the suprasternal notch.

But as Takamiyagi Sensei showed me, many Uechi kata techniques are actually nukites in disguise. This would include hawk chases sparrow (both hands), groin strikes, crane strikes, eye strikes, etc.

- Bill

[Rob Kolenc]

Bill, what/where is the suprasternal notch? And why not hit it with a single knuckle punch or palm heel instead?

[Bill Glasheen]

The suprasternal notch is that indentation in the bottom of your throat just above the breast bone (sternum).

The big reason for many "Uechi pointy thing" techniques is because certain targets are completely unavailable via the standard seiken punch or palm heel. You need to dig in deep to get the effect from the suprasternal notch. What you are doing there is stimulating the gag reflex from the outside. If you combine it with another pressure point, the effect can be dramatic. It gets the bad guy's attention, and can get you out of a jam when you are in close and personal. Unless you're dealing with someone who you can't haul off and smack, you should immediately follow up with a "closer" technique.

- Bill

[Rob Kolenc]

Ah, thank you. That makes sense. Soft stuff, got it.

Looks like I better put my old Gray's Anatomy textbook in my gym bag.

Going a bit further with real world kata applications;

What's do forum members think about the real world application of the first few moves of Seichin?

1. Why do you need a bear paw to do a block?,
and
2. Would you hit ribs with a bear paw in the real world? If not, where would you use it?

Thanks again,

Rob

[Van Canna]

Rob,

Carlos Ciriza used the 'paw' against his knife attacking punk.

First shot broke both the punk's jaws_

Second shot caved in his ribs, driving one into his lungs.

Reportedly, the paw was Kanei Uechi's preferred weapon.

[chewy]

For me it varies, but I can't ever recall performing the kata with the chest as a target (nor have I ever been asked to by my Sensei or other black belts). I tend to either target the suprasternal notch or right in the meaty part of the front of the shoulder (pressure point?).

Bill - Thanks for the new verbage! I've always used "the soft spot at the base of the throat just above the sternum", but "suprasternal notch" takes much less energy. Although I'm sure I'll get funny looks in class until I explain this new term to everyone.


cheers,

chewy

[chewy]

Ah, thank you. That makes sense. Soft stuff, got it.

Looks like I better put my old Gray's Anatomy textbook in my gym bag.

Going a bit further with real world kata applications;

What's do forum members think about the real world application of the first few moves of Seichin?

1. Why do you need a bear paw to do a block?,
and
2. Would you hit ribs with a bear paw in the real world? If not, where would you use it?

Thanks again,

Rob

1. For the first technique I think of it more as a strike to the throat, eyes, or bridge of the nose than a block. My Sensei teaches it as a little bit of a block and a little bit of a strike. It can actually be both at the same time.

2. For the second technique I have to admit I haven't though about it much until you mentioned it . Probably something for me to correct in my own kata (I need to pick a target). Now that you've brought it to my attention I would say: solar plexus and floating ribs. Subconciously I think I've been doing solar plexus.


chewy.

[Bill Glasheen]

The bear paw or hiraken is an aquired taste. But I too have grown fond of the technique.

At first, I really couldn't do much with it, and found reason to make various modifications to make it more effective. I'd try to whack the heavy bag with it, and end up believing I'd only hurt my hand.

But over time I eventually developed my hands and an understanding of this and other classic Uechi "big three kata" techniques. Now I pretty much do them all "by the book." And when I say by the book, I mean I do them exactly like the beautiful black-and-white photos in Kanei Uechi's Big Blue Book.

The first thing you need to do is develop your hands. But in my opinion, you don't need to be a Nakahodo to make it work, nor do you need big, calloused knuckles. Far from it. I constantly am told by others that they can't believe how "beautiful" my hands are for a karate practitioner. (I don't mangle them on various hitting pads, and my hands are better suited for playing musical instruments or doing surgery.) And yet when I work with folks, they get plenty pissed as I show them how I can poke here and gouge there. As Uechi Kanei used to say, the strength needs to come from within.

One of the best ways to start "getting it" is to do just a little bit of classic kami (jar) training. There's a way you are supposed to hold those jars. At camp George had someone who had designed some pretty interesting devices that could hook to standard barbell weights. I was delighted, because I was looking for someone to do that (and was willing to let them file for the patents). This fellow almost got it right. It could be used "as is" if you know what you are doing. But too many people would grab it "the wrong way" and they never will understand the hand orientation. The thumb print needs to be oriented at a 90 degree angle to the surface being grabbed, and the distal joint bent at 90 degrees. As you grab what you want to grab, the side of the thumb should be holding on to the device. Subsequently your boshiken, shoken, and hiraken feed off of this "muscle memory." It really is only about 50% strength; the rest is technique and the right paradigm shift.

But back to doing stuff with these things... Another big problem is hitting bags and makiwara. You never will get it if you keep doing this. You need to hit either "Bob" or actually start poking at real people in the dojo. Why? What you will discover is that you don't really need to be that precise with your hits, and you don't need to worry about confounding factors such as sweat and moisture. Some of the best targets can be "found" because a little bit of lubrication will slide the pointy technique right where it will have the greatest effect. Natural selection has created an anatomy for us that protects these vulnerable areas from random trauma, and pointy weapons just happen to be the one thing that defeats this baseline defense. Four good examples are the suprasternal notch, various aspects of the side of the neck, the eyeballs, and the armpits. With all of these, you either are attacking major nerves or body organs. And none of these 4 targets are vulnerable either to fists or to palm heels.

But that's not the whole picture. You're probably familiar with the concept of a straw going through a telephone pole in a tornado. That's stricktly an issue of speed. If your hands move fast enough, you can penetrate bone with very little conditioning. But that's a big "if."

The secret (IMO) to doing this has nothing to do with your robot Sanchin kata thrust. To get this stuff to work, you need to unleash the Uechi dragon, and not very many Uechika are good at that (yet). What I mean is a kind of serpentine wave of movement from the legs, up through the spine, and finally a whipping motion that comes out the hands. One biomechanics source I have investigated calls the principle "sequential summation of movement." Just take a look at a common bullwhip in action and you'll see how that works. Watch a baseball pitcher throw a baseball, or a batter swing a bat. They get it.

And what's the best way to employ that? How about that "posture" at the end of the front rising "elbow strike" in Seisan? Ever wonder why they make you put your hand in that ridiculous, by-the-head, hiraken posture?

When I've showed my students how to get this whipping hiraken working, I've been able to have some of them punch holes in the yoga mats with their knuckles. Given what I can do now, I am completely confident my hiraken would penetrate the temple with no additional hand conditioning needed. (I have a few exercises I do...but not as much as you think.) Another good target would be the "triple warmer" just underneath the ear.

It sounds a little on the fantastic side, but it isn't. It's kind of like a baseball pitcher who ages and loses his fastball, and then discovers he can fan batters with a knuckleball. It's all in the technique, and a reasonable whole-body balance and synergy of movement.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's some detail from a modern western medicine guy who believes in pressure points. Bruce Miller is a practicing physician assistant who also is schooled in eastern massage arts. He's also know for his understanding of kata application, and for creating his own martial arts system that exploits known vulnerabilities. Many of the techniques of his system look VERY familiar to a common Uechi practitioner. Yes, he likes "pointy things."

From Fightingarts.com

Pressure Points Review

Type 1- Pain: most common, but not always reliable.

Type 2 - Muscle: may not cause pain, and can be nullified.

Type 3 – Reflex: least common, do not necessarily cause pain, but most reliable.


{snip}

While level 2 pressure points can be nullified, this is usually because there is so much muscle tension that they cannot be rolled. And if there is that much tension, the use of that muscle group is hard to accomplish so…you get the point (no pun intended).

Furthermore, the reverse is also true: once you have unlocked the muscle tension (classically with a level 3 pressure point strike), the muscles CAN be rolled and level 2 pressure points now work again.

Does it work with a person high on PCP? You bet it does! I have had personal experience. In this case the person (patient) was very high, agitated and out to destroy anyone who got close. When he grabbed me, his arm was very tight but a tap to the gag reflex (usually a finger quickly pressed into the notch at the base of the throat just above
the sternal notch) loosened up everything allowing me to rake across his brachioradalis (the muscle just below the elbow on the thumb side through which runs branches of the radial nerve) and take away his balance. Once I owned his balance, it was easy to guide him, face down, to the floor in a controlled situation where no one had to get hurt.

- Bill

[jkolb]

And what's the best way to employ that? How about that "posture" at the end of the front rising "elbow strike" in Seisan? Ever wonder why they make you put your hand in that ridiculous, by-the-head, hiraken posture?

When I've showed my students how to get this whipping hiraken working, I've been able to have some of them punch holes in the yoga mats with their knuckles.
- Bill

I wanna see!

[Bill Glasheen]

Here is part of Bruce's explanation of the use of Level 2 pressure points.

When you simply punch people, what you will notice is that they back up, but most of the time they still hang on with most of their strength. However, when you run a knuckle fist or eye of the phoenix (a fist with the first knuckle extended) quickly down their muscles, they not only back up but also move their hips backward, bend their knees (a little) and drop their weight downward. While most of the time they still have their hands on you there is very little strength in their hands. By the way, it also brings their face closer to you.

I will freely admit that this effect may not last long in a determined opponent and you can only count on about 1/2 of a second before they will begin to regain their composure (and strength in their arms), BUT a half second is a relatively long time if you are prepared to use it.

{snip}

The fact is that done correctly, you can stimulate most muscles to have an effect. However, it can be tricky knowing how to do so. Even more important than knowing how to stimulate the muscle is knowing in advance what reaction you are going to get. Remember we said you only have about 1/2 second. If you spend that time observing the reaction, you are not going to be able to capitalize on it. If you know in advance what is going to happen then you can make the most of it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Here is an example of employing a principle that Rory Miller calls "stacking." And Bruce does it using a classic Uechi pointy thing (either nukite finger tips, or a Siddle-like boshiken thumb).

How's that for drawing from many sources?

If you have done this correctly {attack the suprasternal notch} you will see the person back up quickly. How far he backs up is in direct proportion to how hard and how fast you push. It is possible to have him launch himself into the wall behind him with all his muscles.

In order to get even more effect, this time I want you to run your fingers on the bone edge of the top part of the sternal notch (hard) so that you are rubbing bone as you press the gag reflex. The bone part is the level 1 pressure point stimulation and the sharp pain will take away any resistance he may have had from your finger or thumb entering this area. Done correctly you should see an enhanced effect.

This is a classic example of how I use pressure points. I frequently use a combination of such points knowing full well that if the level 1 pressure point doesn’t work, then the level 3 will. If both points work, then I am even better off as my opponent is not.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I wanna see!

It really isn't that hard to do. Once you see it, you get it.

The best description I can think of is that it's like using your hiraken as if it was the head of a cobra. You do a rotational body wave, and then your hiraken cobra strikes out at the end of the wave.

Jim is supposed to film me on some more of Tsukenshitahaku no sai tonight. Maybe I'll get him to do a quick film of me doing this, and of punching holes in the yoga mats. It's pretty cool stuff. No hard promises as I'm volunteering someone else's time. But I'll try.

- Bill