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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:32 am 
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One of the most interesting debates that have raged for years here on these boards is the forward vs. backward question. This of course puzzles me no end as in the system I do going backward, which may mean different things to different folks, is called disengaging. Disengaging in the larger sense means that you are retreating you have chosen not to fight. So to me, if you have chosen not to fight then what of fighting is there to study? I mean I've heard of the study of in-fighting, but the study of un-fighting? No, I don't get it. If you must fight and you backup you still need to go in later, that is if you still can.

But for others who may have a different understanding let's look at what forward can mean in terms of something common to all Uechi-ka, the Wauke. One of the key ingredients in my system <sorry to always use WCK but that's what I do - now> is something called forward energy. This is the basic energy component that makes our "tools" work and also makes the wauke work.

Forward energy is projected from the body, via the legs and hips and also from the arms, which can connect and disconnect from the body. This is the engine that drives the mechanics of what we do and makes it work. This forward energy doesn't mean always charging in at all as has been suggested; You can use forward energy even just standing still, it is a kind of muscular intent that fills the arms and body. If you place your hands out in front of you in a sanchin guard what energy is present - any? Is any kind of energy or muscular intent there or are the arms just there either loose or tensed? If the objective IS to enter into the space of the opponent and control then the forward energy must be used. Again entering into the space of the opponent is what you need to do if what you are doing is "telephone booth fighting." What space filling ability does is allow you to enter into the opponent's space, smother his movement, remove his balance and ability to attack with power, giving you that split second chance to reek havoc, all in the shortest time possible.

What is gained when one executes the typical wauke? Well if you do it going backwards, or better yet by maintaining distance then the best you can hope to accomplish is a a redirect of his attack and delayed engagement. This delay gets you what exactly? We know that his next attack is going to be right behind the first one, know that we have not done anything stop his ability to attack, and we know we have wasted time and energy since nothing was done to improve the tactical situation in our favor, in fact we may have given the attacker the ability to gain more momentum, which means more power and more speed.

Now if you execute that wauke with forward energy, which could be a lot of energy with the whole body actually going forward or it could be just a little forward energy supported by the body with a pivot, keeping your facing to them <like a revolving door> what happens? Suddenly you have a totally different dynamic at work. Instead of a mere redirect, now you are slicing into the opponent's center of gravity, but let's look at what that means: If your energy is trained to focus into the center when you wauke this will cause his attack to be jammed, his balance to be disrupted, he may 'loose his facing' meaning you flank him, and it places you right inside his *center* giving you access to his core targets - like his throat for example. Because of this close range and position you have great leverage and can now land a barrage of max power blows or just crush his throat.

So clearly we can see that using forward energy with the wauke can facilitate control. Simply by working the wauke with forward energy and closing or by allowing the opponent to close while we maintain forward energy to support the sanchin structure we immediately take many things away from the opponent, we take his space, his balance, his position, and we place ourselves in a tactically superior position so that we have the potential to finish the threat ASAP. This is something Chinese styles are known for, sudden and explosive combat "solutions" that simply blow up in the opponent's face like a bomb going off because lost time on the battlefield often translates into lost life.

So when using a forward energy intent, which covers much more than simply "charging in" offers so many tactical advantages is it any wonder that the katas <mainly> hold ground or close? Is it any wonder that so many highly regarded Uechi teachers advocate working the close or entering? Or is it more a wonder of why this is not the emphasis of some training?

The next time you see someone showing you how the wauke is done, take a long look and see if the wauke is used to take things away from the aggressor. Ask yourself, was the aggressor’s ability to continue his attack stopped? If not then the wauke was not allowed to do it’s job, which is to make things easier for you. Try it yourself, if you haven’t: Let a partner fire a punch and start off with just a little relaxed forward pressure in the wauke, then add in some forward body movement, angling body movement and closing or even turning, but with forward energy support, if they are really committed and see what happens. How did it feel to you?

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:51 am 
Excellent post.

The Wauke is a main ingredient of Uechi Kata.

It is the most versatile weapon in the Uechi arsenal.

Emphasis on weapon.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:08 am 
JimHawkins wrote:
booth fighting." What space filling ability does is allow you to enter into the opponent's space, smother his movement, remove his balance and ability to attack with power, giving you that split second chance to reek havoc, all in the shortest time possible.


That is... unless they move backwards... Your assuming that your oppenent will be stunned by your assault and frozen in time. it's kind of like chasing a rainbow through a garden hose. Good luck trying to fill that space. A smart fighter will respond to your entry and position himself for a powerful shot and your running into it will compound its effect exponentially. The Uechi Zen Suko Geri is a perfect example (lead leg front kick).

JimHawkins wrote:
What is gained when one executes the typical wauke? Well if you do it going backwards, or better yet by maintaining distance then the best you can hope to accomplish is a a redirect of his attack and delayed engagement.



Not true... my buddy from Enshin showed me how to Wauke, step backwards while turning and sling the guy around. Turns out, I already sort of knew how to do it because our Tenshin moves in Hojo Undo where the same thing! It's basically a Wauke while stepping backwards... similar to the J step in Aikido. I've gotten really good at that technque and yes... I can do it in sparring. I just looked it up in my Sabaki Method book and the technique is called Hiki Mawashi.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:50 am 
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Bronze Dago
That is... unless they move backwards... Your assuming that your oppenent will be stunned by your assault



It seems to me you are assuming he CAN move backwards.

But using forward energy to disrupt balance and issue force <wauke> has nothing to do with stunning the opponent it's about making contact and taking control WHILE you bash him.

Quote:

Originally posted by The Bronze Dago
and frozen in time. it's kind of like chasing a rainbow through a garden hose. Good luck trying to fill that space. A smart fighter will respond to your entry and position himself for a powerful shot and your running into it will compound its effect exponentially.



Here you seem to assume that ENTRY means chasing something: It does not; It means getting inside the opponent's weapons through <your> position and energy attacks. There are many different kinds of entries as have been discussed here that all operate with respect to the INTERCEPT..

Intercept means you are using your opponent's actions or inactions to time your attack. There are many ways to do that but none of them have anything to do with chasing the opponent or making reckless attacks that can be INTERCEPTED with ease. Filling space means jamming, pressing, clearing, and stealing balance; As was shown in the Gary Lam videos; As you can see he did not chase or charge recklessly.
quote:

Quote:
Not true... my buddy from Enshin showed me how to Wauke, step backwards while turning and sling the guy around.



This is something I use all the time, normally converting into an arm lock as of late and from very close in I might add.

Anyway, assuming you are not grabbing on to a Herman Munster punch sleeve <sleeves don't count> you will have no chance of doing this move on a fast punch that retracts without correct distance <damn close> and forward pressure into the CG of the opponent. Without these attributes you are essentially "plucking punches" out of the air - IMO not realistic at all.

The forward pressure in addition to aiding in control through sticking maximizes time in contact so you can feel and time the connection. Still there is no guarantee you can get this move off if they are fast. If they retract before you can attach, then the forward pressure and close range close MUST be there in order to immediately convert into a press/jam and/or counter punch/attack.

As the attack proceeds more space must be filled in order to maintain a constant attack via both the hands/arms and legs/feet. With each progressive small close power is generated, space is filled and the ability to control enhanced.. Or you could just back up...

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


Last edited by JimHawkins on Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:45 am 
I've done it a hundred times! Against the guy who taught it to me no less (i'm sure he regrets it now)! I can usually get it after a flank/body check.

Assuming I can move back: Yes, if there is a wall on my back (and your assuming there is), I simply back step to the right or left (JUST LIKE IN KONCHIN, YOU KNOW, THE INVALID KATA THAT MUST BE IGNORED) and simply circle to where you just where. I do it once a week at least in the boxing ring (I spar every Friday, have for 3 months now). Guy gets me in the corner and I basically crayfish myself right out of there... I say crayfish because that is exactley how the move goes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:19 pm 
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You are still assuming he is just attacking like Herman at random and not timing you. Training entry is also about learning to time your attack off of the opponent's actions, NOT charging in like an idiot whenever the mood hits you.

You appear to be fixated on the evade and counter idea although from what I get from you and the clips you posted you seem to be more of the charge in type.. :? Again what you might be able to do with a partner has nothing to do with this subject. Snatching punches out of the air is not reasonable when dealing with anyone skilled, it doesn't happen that way, there must be a supporting energy strategy - if you are checking and feeling and controlling using energy and contact then you are not PLUCKING.. Control via feel and contact are the only way to gain control of a tornado of fast punches.

This is about using the wauke with forward energy to gain entry and control. These systems are about contact and control though pressing, grabbing, jamming, clinching, and more. Things not allowed in Boxing and things that cannot be trained by staying away.

It's similar to standup grappling with hitting, locking and finishing. Or to put in another way:

It would be "GAY" for new Wing Chun students to train evasion, since they can learn nothing about timing direct and efficient entries; They cannot learn to issue control via energy/force and contact. Contact, as with grapplers is not to be avoided it is the bread and butter of these systems, it is sought to gain entry, control and finish, 90% of our training is INSIDE done with FEEL. These systems advocate that the threat and any other threats must be shut down IMMEDIATELY without delay... Delayed engagement is not the objective or focus of this training, entry and control is.

I don't know how to make this any clearer, perhaps some others will post later.

Cheers!

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:31 pm 
JimHawkins wrote:
You appear to be fixated on the evade and counter idea although from what I get from you and the clips you posted you seem to be more of the charge in type.. :?


No, i'm not... i'm just saying those techniques are out there and should be explored. You guys are like.. "No! NO! Thats not Uechi!"

Jim, you want to make yourself clearer... post video. I would like to see you and your students doing some drills and some sparring.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Just for the record.. I have no students now. They have all been discharged..

I will post some video if and when I figure out what I am going to do training wise. It's all up in the air now, since my last visit to my school did not turn out as I had hoped.

In any case Rick would be better for demoing use of the wauke as stated here and I am sure more will post.

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:55 pm 
I'm not nessecarily interested in the Wauke.. i'm familiar with it and i've seen a gazzilion applications for it.

I am interested in all this enter/centerline/chi sao stuff your always talking about. Yes, I seen Gary Lam do it, and he is impressive but you seem to be more readily able to relate it to what I am doing.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:00 pm 
"JUST LIKE IN KONCHIN, YOU KNOW, THE INVALID KATA THAT MUST BE IGNORED"

Who said you had to ignore this Kata Tony? :?

If I make choice not to do this Kata YOU have to follow?

But that can be true because you are not following me on the back up thing. :lol:

No one said the Kata has to be ignored Tony. 8O

Please please feel free to do YOUR Uechi and don't worry about mine. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:40 pm 
I'm not worried about yours Rick, i'm standing up for mine and anyone else who sees the value in "backstepping"! I encourage anyone reading this to practice moving to the rear, escaping, evading.. all that stuff... it's uechi... it's in the katas (both major and minor katas) and its makes you a good, well rounded fighter who will drive "forward only" fighters insane. Watch Gatti! A master of the slip and backpeddler extrodinaire!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Tony

Is that really and honestly your preferred strategy for sport AND street. Is that really your style of fighting in general or are you blowing smoke up our butts? :? :lol:

If so then what is it exactly that you gain, other than delay, by backpeddling vs. working an intercept as soon as possible?

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:30 pm 
Not yet, but i'm working on it Jim. Lets remember, I come from Herman Munsters and Forward fighting too. I'm currently learning some invaluable lessons right now.. one of which, once you get trapped, it's very dangerous and you have to get out. You guys can sit there and think "oh... i can do this and that..." yeah... ok.. get in the ring... get in there with someone who wants to do nothing but knock you down. They come after you and there is no where to run. You have to work with the little space that you are given and fight them off at the same time. There is NO EXPLAINING IT! You have to do it. Firing those jabs while shooting backwards is a very important technique that I need to learn right now to surive. Eventually, I will learn to do it with a kick.

Oh yeah, and i'm learning footwork too.. something Uechi people ****** at!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:47 pm 
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This has nothing to do with super human ability.. Dammit when are those capes coming in Laird?? I just don’t feel manly enough without my cape.. :lol: :roll:

Look, you can either go in now and kick his ass <or get your ass kicked> or do it later.

Delay of the inevitable no?

But then you are trying to get through the rounds... See little things like that change everything...

The higher percentage in the street and in most sport is to get there the firstest with the mostest.. This alone can make all the difference and is yet another reason why this <deal with it> attitude is emphasized in these TMA.

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M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


Last edited by JimHawkins on Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Tony, Every instructor that I've had that has real experience has backing up and fighting from a disadvantage in their tool box. When guys with a 18 in their MOS teach me how to backup I listen. When some UFC fighter is being overwhelmed and backs up and around to create space I understand why. I'm sure nobody wants to be on the losing end but it's good to have an idea of how it feels and what you can do when it happens. And it will happen.

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