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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:12 am 
Mindset Van, as always.

Worked over an hour tonight with the adults on simply going through pain. (Well managed and safe I will describe it sometime.)

Also had them watch some street fight film I taped off TV.

Number of points:

1. Sucker punches are still the favourite (nail them from the side.)

2. Not one of the fights went to the ground. One person did.

3. You can take one heck of a hit and keep fighting IF that is your mindset.

4. Real fights happen fast and violent and are over quickly.

5. Once you are knocked down you are open to a brutal beating.

Work off of all the attacks Van listed.

Learn to work through pain.

Learn to survive.

Mindset.

Attack mentality.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:46 am 
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2Green wrote:
Mr. Wilson said:
"However, if we are aware of the situation and prepared for an attack to come the distance to reach your arm out and block the strike is equal to or longer than the distance to reach out and strike the aggressor."

...The way we train, there is no distinction between "blocking the strike" and "striking the aggressor".
ALL BLOCKS strike the aggressor in a manner intended to hurt, damage, dissuade and render the aggressor vulnerable.

We don't train to stand there and swat incoming limbs, we use
the opportunity to punish the aggressor with a counterattack that locks-out his intended attack while delivering our own.
That, to me, is what a "block" really is. A counterattack that locks out the aggressor's attack while delivering our own.

Every "block" (hate that word) that we train is a counter, not a defense.
The "block" IS the counterattack.

"Blocks" in the classical defensive sense, only work once, in a surprise situation, hypothetically, maybe.
But Mr. Wilson's scenario has us "prepared".

This gives us the luxury of time...to move IN...


NM


Displacing the incoming attack and 'blocking' with the counter is very much a part of what WCK <why we attack on the line> and JKD <this is the meaning of JKD> sees as an ideal. Again, this is part of what is meant by ‘fitting in’. BUT there is more than one way to do this, such as in one short fluid movement or two; and sometimes this simply will not work out because of position and timing/reaction problems.

Neil, could you explain how you might work this against different kinds of conventional attacks? Have you found that you could do this often in sparring? There are many differences here depending on how the opponent attacks, feints, fakes, the positioning of the defenders weapons and structure, the timing, defender's reaction time, etc. In other words pulling this off is not easy to do and IMO should not be seen as an ‘only option.’

For example, one may find it tough to pull this off if your hand/guard placement is outside the opponent's with respect to the line. In this case how will you displace his straight "center" attack, e.g. a WCK attack, or a ‘stiff jab’ or a straight right with your tool and still hit with power? Remember that the *positioning * is what will or will not allow you to displace AND still have full power left afterward to destroy, and in order for this to work you must have better position and in many cases better timing. If you do not have an inside reference point with leverage and the opponent does this won't work.

Many times when this or any kind of move is used it will get you into a clash situation, a momentary stalemate, and then you have to work off of feel or change your tactics. So while the single beat displacing intercept is a good idea and useful I do not see it as an end all be all, making two handed, <parry/hit> counters, or many other kinds of two beat counter attacks obsolete in the least, not sure if that was implied or not.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:44 pm 
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If he comes up the center take his side or get behind him. A little tai sabki and a little receiving can help gain advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:37 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
If he comes up the center take his side or get behind him. A little tai sabki and a little receiving can help gain advantage.


Unlike a Herman Munster punch, a quick controlled jab takes all of about a tenth of a second to fire and retract, so 'moving to his side' IMO is not reasonable because your whole body cannot move anywhere near as fast as his lightning fast jab - even if there was no reaction delay, and there is. Moreover, if he is not standing in glue he will expect you to move and be tracking and adjusting his facing, firing multiple jabs as you do, and ready to fire a rear hand at any time.

I agree with the idea of *subtle* movement, a tiny angle off of a few degrees while firing a counter jab for example is reasonable, as are other counters that take milliseconds vs. many tenths of a second. But I feel that saying "just get his side" is somewhat misleading in terms of what is and what is not possible, in terms of movement/reaction time against something like a true jab fired off by a competent fighter.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:04 pm 
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Who is waiting for the jab? Why would I stand in jabbing range? Why can't I parry? Why can't I cover? Why can't I kick? Why can't I read his attack (CWCT)? Just how competent is this boxer? Why is he competent and the karateka is not? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:17 pm 
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Quote:
Unlike a Herman Munster punch, a quick controlled jab takes all of about a tenth of a second to fire and retract.

Moreover, if he is not standing in glue he will expect you to move and be tracking and adjusting his facing, firing multiple jabs as you do, and ready to fire a rear hand at any time.

I agree with the idea of *subtle* movement, a tiny angle off of a few degrees while firing a counter jab for example is reasonable, as are other counters that take milliseconds vs. many tenths of a second. But I feel that saying, "just get his side" is somewhat misleading in terms of what is and what is not possible, in terms of movement/reaction time against something like a true jab fired off by a competent fighter.


If you think about it_ this is so true.

And again it goes to the question: are you practicing self-defense skills or fighting skills_ not sure we have a clear definition of these concepts.

Try to envision ‘attack/defensive modules’ most likely to occur in your life.

None of us really practices these in Uechi, except a few.

Will you face a surprise attack? Well, how about defining this? How will it come and why in your life style?

Will you be engaging in mutual combat, taking stances etc., or will the attack come as you try to defuse and or evade?

So what will be coming at you?

Shoves/punches/kicks/grabs/waist tackles/head grab/improvised weapon? Hair grab/shirt, coat grabs and pulls over your head? / Grabbing/slapping your right shoulder? / Lead hand slap? /rear hand uppercut? /rear bear hug? /front headlock and choke?

Does your attacker have longer arms/reach? /heel stomping/ jump stomping/frontal choke/wall smash/lead hand slap under chin, followed by straight right to chin? /hair grab and head dunk? _

How fast and from what distance will they come?



Just a few examples of what you will face on the street. So how fast and how close will they be? And are we really prepared for this? If yes, what are we doing that make us so prepared?

From what I read, it seems Rick Wilson is the only one who works these concepts as part of his regular Uechi training_

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Who is waiting for the jab?


No idea but Neil’s post, the one I addressed was talking about a counter that displaces the attack, key word there is counter.

MikeK wrote:
Why would I stand in jabbing range?


Again, my post was in response to the displacing counter attack idea which means you are in range to displace and counter. No one suggested you would do this mike, in fact the post was not even about you.

MikeK wrote:
Why can't I parry? Why can't I cover? Why can't I kick? Why can't I read his attack (CWCT)?


The counter attack which displaces does parry as it moves to the target. I think other kinds of parries are fine so long as there is enough time to deploy and there is an offensive component included. You can kick or even run away but the post was concerning a particular kind of intercept.

MikeK wrote:
Just how competent is this boxer? Why is he competent and the karateka is not? :wink:


The jab or other controlled center attack is one of the fastest hand attacks there is.. It's about time and reaction time delay – the jab uses very little time and the reaction delay problem will always be there for the 'defender.' Again this was about a displacing intercepting counter attack.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Quote:
The jab or other controlled center attack is one of the fastest hand attacks there is.. It's about time and reaction time delay – the jab uses very little time and the reaction delay problem will always be there for the 'defender.' Again this was about a displacing intercepting counter attack.


This is a real problem even if you are just 'talking' to your potential assailant as he gets you closer into his jab range in a crowded area_ a bar on a Friday night/a party/wedding reception etc.

I have given countless examples of these over the years.

> a part guest [ little guy who was taking boxing lessons] danced with a big bruiser's date. When the big guy tried to 'bump chests' [ another tactic we don't 'address']
with the little guy, the little guy knocked him out with a right hook.<

Something else you must keep in mind as you talk and think self- defense:

think of the mindset and experience the potential assailant may have over you_ experience in sports competition_ experience in previous real brawls_ a genetic disposition toward aggressive action_ and a hard edge of someone possibly being raised amid violence.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:11 pm 
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Gotcha Jim. I gave a general response on purpose because there are many variables and options. Just wondering if you are approaching this as if in "clean room", pure technique vs technique?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:10 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Gotcha Jim. I gave a general response on purpose because there are many variables and options. Just wondering if you are approaching this as if in "clean room", pure technique vs technique?


I am just talking as I would in a classroom setting. I believe in training certain concepts which all deal mainly with Reaction Time Delay. This was the founding base that WCK was created around and is also the base of my beliefs and study.

I believe in the continuous base training of WCK <chi sao> but I also believe in going in and looking at specific kinds of attacks and working defenses against them realistically and progressively. One simple kind of attack could be a jab or jabs... The system offers several ways to deal with a jab but I believe in teaching one or two common and "simple" ways to do that and working those over a wide range of applications. What binds all these "solutions" together is that they all use the smallest possible amount of time, motion and energy to deploy and destroy – this is my operative refinement rule.

In this case Neil mentioned an advanced application of Jeet Kune, a displacement, where the attacking hand parries and hits. This is one very good way to conserve time, motion and energy and merits discussion and exploration.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:33 pm 
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Rick Wilson wrote:
I don’t think of this as blocking but closing and jamming so maybe it is just a terminology thing.


Well since most WCK "blocks" use a forward action vs. a lateral action an early WCK "block" jams, while a late WCK "block" parries and then jams. Upon loss of contact.. see sig. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:49 pm 
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Quote:
What binds all these "solutions" together is that they all use the smallest possible amount of time, motion and energy to deploy and destroy – this is my operative refinement rule.


And I saw that 'rule' in action when you taught me how to read and handle a jab/jabs.

Any other way, I don't think We would be fast enough to 'get around' quick jabs.

Bridget showed this problem well at the Foxhole with Jim Maloney and us before camp.

I don't see many boxers able to even lightly sidestep a good jab.

What is your experience with this, Tony?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:09 pm 
my original preference was for the outside .

I find the soto uke from shotokan angled towards the centre line and driving in to take enough balance . Not really any different from what one could do with a Sanchin guard . If it comes up and over ;) , I usually shoot for the throat , follow the limb and find the neck .

of course if you can grab all the better to feed into a target .

throwing a stike on strike from the outside works the same way , though there are advantages to compound attacks on the inside .

However the outside has advantages too , clean kicking lines etc .

And I do find it quite easy to take someones back for the side , it just takes forward pressure :wink: , get in there and tangle and throw lots ..... kinda handbag at 10 paces flicky kung fu crap :lol: ( joking Jim )

Or just simply cover your head and shoulder them , knee them in the thigh , stomp on there foot , go balaistic and primal .

and dont forget to Kiaaiiiii !!!! , or as I prefer tell em to get ......

It`s quite possible to spear from the outside giving you a grab and a weapon on the neck ....

lots of options .


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:02 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
And I saw that 'rule' in action when you taught me how to read and handle a jab/jabs.


Thanks Van, sorry we couldn't have covered more.

But I think that's one example of a simple and sneaky way to put it in their face. You can also do it with a simultaneous <beat two> low smashing kick to their lead leg or a knee to the thigh and I like following up from there with an over the top elbow; This works especially well if they try to cover when you go in. But there are other uses of those clearing moves and that particular intercept does depend on angle wrt the line of his jab.

I know my limitations.. and have played with a good boxer or two. My ex-boxer student had a very scary and mean jab. When he does it with full power it is a lightning fast snap, he has a nice long reach and you can see the power; I fully expect he could KO someone with it. I know I cannot expect to move around this kind of attack because he will easily follow. Small entry moves that use little motion IMO offer the best chance to retake the attack timing initiative and then get me into contact range where I can finish.

But hey, for those so inclined you might want to go for a shoot and take down or a keep away kick, etc, but that's not my bag.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:14 am 
The Jab, as I am being taught is omni-present and trained constantly. As of right now, I try to maintain somewhere in the neiborhood of a 7:1 ratio of jab to cross/hook combo. The more the better. I've actually knocked a few people silly in the ring with a jab... surprsingly, they did most of the work.. you see, with a jab, timing is everything... for it to be very powerful, you have to time it with their entry. This can be trained on focus mitts, or as I do almost everyworkout, the speed ball (or double ended bag). The jab is too fast to side step but you can train your reflexes to slip it. By slipping, your not nessecarly trying to get them to miss you, but the goal is more to convert what would be a perdincicular strike, to a glancing blow. Also, a jab has a useful zone, once they get past it, it's pretty much ineffective. I have short arms compared to most of the guys I spar with... i'm learning to get past that jab, and once I am inside, I unload mega-body punches. All I have to look for is uppercuts and hooks (of course, in karate, the problems are compounded by elbows and knees). Anyway, moving your whole body out of the way of a jab is a waste of time, the thing to do is minimize it's effect by moving that head around... yeah, it's a game of probabilities if you don't have the ability to "read" yet, but it's better then walking right into a jab that can knock you down.

Oh, and a jab in the chest can hurt too!


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