Push Hands
Moderator: Available
Push Hands
How do you practice push hands?
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jorvik
there are a lot of different ways. The best thing would be to get a vid from say Yang,s Martial arts association and learn from that.
Basically you start with one arm against one arm as he pushes forward you move your arm back and twist at the waist so that his power goes past you then you return the push and he does the same.later you do two hands and then later again you move around and try to push each other over
Basically you start with one arm against one arm as he pushes forward you move your arm back and twist at the waist so that his power goes past you then you return the push and he does the same.later you do two hands and then later again you move around and try to push each other over
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-Metablade-
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
That is the way I had learned it as well.
After a time, some of the students in our group became very adept at it, and we would continue the exercise by closing our eyes.
I feel it is a most excellent practice, a fun game, and can be a strangely vigorous workout.
Over all, Good stuff
After a time, some of the students in our group became very adept at it, and we would continue the exercise by closing our eyes.
I feel it is a most excellent practice, a fun game, and can be a strangely vigorous workout.
Over all, Good stuff
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.
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Stryke
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
True there are lots of different kinds of drills like this, like Tai Chi Push Hands, Wing Chun Chi Sao, etc, many other styles similar to Uechi also have these kinds of drills, some of which are quite different, both in form and function.jorvik wrote: there are a lot of different ways. The best thing would be to get a vid from say Yang,s Martial arts association and learn from that.
While reading books and watching tapes is a great way to get your feet wet, the ONLY real way to develop a good understanding <in this lifetime> and actualize the potential of these drills is to get high quality, hands on instruction from someone qualified in teaching these drills. There is no real replacement for working with someone highly skilled in these kinds of drills who has a keen understanding of how to generate and use the subtle energies and positions involved, and how to bring these things out in students and finally make the transition to viable application.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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jorvik
there is a tale told in Tai-chi circles about the founder of Yang style secretly watching Chen family members practising TC, which he then copied and when tested was better than they were at it 
................in Aikido the teacher demonstrates the technique and then you practise it...this is good because it gives you focus. The point that I'm making is that a good quality teacher is great ( if you can find one 
).but nowadays with DVD's you can get a long way on your own and then look for the quality instruction
................in Aikido the teacher demonstrates the technique and then you practise it...this is good because it gives you focus. The point that I'm making is that a good quality teacher is great ( if you can find one ).but nowadays with DVD's you can get a long way on your own and then look for the quality instruction Jim's right, you really need to get someone who knows what they are doing. I worked for a couple of months with a TCC guy on it at least once a day, and I feel I only started getting it when we were re-assigned. Oddly enough when I was doing Shotokan the principles from the push hands finally snapped into place.
I was dreaming of the past...
I like instructional VCD/DVD/VHS because they give a flavor of other styles and can help keep you going if quality first-hand instruction is not possible, but they are obviously limited in how far they can take you. With diligence, hard work, and when needed a good partner you could learn quite a bit off of these formats, particularly if you already have a good foundation. But at some point you need some input from a teacher to reach higher levels...unless of course you are a brilliant and naturally gifted martial artist who can 'reinvent the wheel' on your own.
A couple years ago I read an article, in "Inside Kung Fu" I think, about a current Chinese nunchaku "master". His only nunchaku training that was mentioned in the article was that he taught himself by watching Bruce Lee movies.
A couple years ago I read an article, in "Inside Kung Fu" I think, about a current Chinese nunchaku "master". His only nunchaku training that was mentioned in the article was that he taught himself by watching Bruce Lee movies.
Glenn
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Patience. The thread is a sticky because I knew I'd be swamped with work and wouldn't be able to post anything until the new year. But I keep it up there in my own face so I remember what I promised myself I'd do. Not dead...just waiting for me to get unburied from work and holiday rush.Dana has a thread on push hands drills but fell dead before it started
Did you show compassion today?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
If I had to wait for a knowledgeable expert to come teach me the rest of Uechi Ryu when my instructor (Rad Smith) left for grad school up north, I'd be sitting on my ass today with a beer gut and nothing to show for my time.
I agree that good instruction is vital. However I cannot stress enough how important it is to take the Nike approach - just do it. My greatest gift in martial arts is that I was never afraid to make a fool of myself. This gave me the courage to put in some "time on the mat." When you can get to a good instructor, go for it. Go to seminars and camps. Pick up any and everything you can, and forgive yourself for making mistakes along the way.
Now that I am a more experienced martial arts (yes, I've had help along the way - and took advantage of it) I've noticed something interesting. Many of those folks who were spoonfed the information in great schools are now.... sitting on their ass with a beer gut. They haven't learned how to teach themselves. They weren't able to get beyond the ability of their instructor, and became lost when they lost contact with him. So while they got the faster, better start...
One of my favorite experiences (sort of) as a forum moderator was dealing with a certain someone who claimed to be a tai chi expert. We were having a discussion in a thread about George doing push hands in his Uechi class. Well, by golly, that just wouldn't do to him. He was, after all, the anointed one and we shouldn't sully HIS art by doing any of this without proper yada yada yada... He even got one of his bad boys online threatening us. (I still have all their names and addresses). Anyhoo, I did my own research in the martial arts community. And it turns out that these "experts" were basically pretty average practitioners in their community. And don't take my word for it; that's what their peers told me.
A half a dozen emotional hijackings away, I cut off communication with this "expert."
There are some good DVDs out there, and some really good instructors with great heads on their shoulders. Seek out what you can when you can. But don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. The worst thing you can ever do is not try at all. After all, the founders of these various systems didn't learn it all from divine inspiration.
- Bill
I agree that good instruction is vital. However I cannot stress enough how important it is to take the Nike approach - just do it. My greatest gift in martial arts is that I was never afraid to make a fool of myself. This gave me the courage to put in some "time on the mat." When you can get to a good instructor, go for it. Go to seminars and camps. Pick up any and everything you can, and forgive yourself for making mistakes along the way.
Now that I am a more experienced martial arts (yes, I've had help along the way - and took advantage of it) I've noticed something interesting. Many of those folks who were spoonfed the information in great schools are now.... sitting on their ass with a beer gut. They haven't learned how to teach themselves. They weren't able to get beyond the ability of their instructor, and became lost when they lost contact with him. So while they got the faster, better start...
One of my favorite experiences (sort of) as a forum moderator was dealing with a certain someone who claimed to be a tai chi expert. We were having a discussion in a thread about George doing push hands in his Uechi class. Well, by golly, that just wouldn't do to him. He was, after all, the anointed one and we shouldn't sully HIS art by doing any of this without proper yada yada yada... He even got one of his bad boys online threatening us. (I still have all their names and addresses
). Anyhoo, I did my own research in the martial arts community. And it turns out that these "experts" were basically pretty average practitioners in their community. And don't take my word for it; that's what their peers told me.A half a dozen emotional hijackings away, I cut off communication with this "expert."
There are some good DVDs out there, and some really good instructors with great heads on their shoulders. Seek out what you can when you can. But don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. The worst thing you can ever do is not try at all. After all, the founders of these various systems didn't learn it all from divine inspiration.
- Bill
Hi Bill,
Though far from a tai chi expert (I've only been working at it for 27 years) push hands is part of our practice in the Yang system.
Push Hands drills (on the inside) are basically a balance exercise, and an attempt to work with a partner and close off any flaws you have in your movmeent.
Push Hands drills (on the outside) look like a contest to off seat, unbalance, or draw an opponent into a disadvantaged system. (In reality the person getting unbalanced does it to themselves, and two good push hands practitioners would continually neutralize themselves making the drill an exercise in increasing ones sensitivity and energy usage).
Sounds like a lot doesn't it.
There are numerous basic push hands drills. The single push hands, and the double push hands drills.
They can be done stationary, moving, moving and turning in either set of practices.
Then beyond the basic movement, any technique flaw can be magnified by the opponent to draw one off balance, and then project, lock or flow into a controling movement.
So Push Hands is slow motion sparring, but really your opponent it yourself.
A more complicated exercise is Da Lau a turning locking drill (where the techniques are found 100% in Chinto Kata too), to incorporate more tai chi technique.
At the highest levels of Yang is San Shou a 2 person 88 technique two person exercise. At one sense it's push hands, at another it's very real very very advanced technique usage of yang.
My instructor also practices Wu Tai Chi Chaun, a more complex derivative of the Yang, and it also has similar and different push hand practices and two person sets.
Unfortunately living far from my instructor I've only had limited exposure to the two person sets, but they're interesting.
I do recommend Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's two books from the early 80's on Advanced Tai Chi Chaun, as well as the available video he offers for those interested. It's not my Yang practice (from Ernest Rothrock) but similar and good, IMO.
And interesting, a counterpoint on the Yang derived from Chen Tai Chi Chaun, apparently in China, the Yang stylists seem not to consider Chen tai chi, but a derivative of Shaolin (the Shaolin temple is in the Chen Village neighborhood). Of course that's just gossip I've heard (and read I believe in Dr. Yang's writings too), but why should tai chi be different from everyone else.
Hope I haven't made this too impossible to follow.
Pleasantly and hope for World Peace in 2006
Though far from a tai chi expert (I've only been working at it for 27 years) push hands is part of our practice in the Yang system.
Push Hands drills (on the inside) are basically a balance exercise, and an attempt to work with a partner and close off any flaws you have in your movmeent.
Push Hands drills (on the outside) look like a contest to off seat, unbalance, or draw an opponent into a disadvantaged system. (In reality the person getting unbalanced does it to themselves, and two good push hands practitioners would continually neutralize themselves making the drill an exercise in increasing ones sensitivity and energy usage).
Sounds like a lot doesn't it.
There are numerous basic push hands drills. The single push hands, and the double push hands drills.
They can be done stationary, moving, moving and turning in either set of practices.
Then beyond the basic movement, any technique flaw can be magnified by the opponent to draw one off balance, and then project, lock or flow into a controling movement.
So Push Hands is slow motion sparring, but really your opponent it yourself.
A more complicated exercise is Da Lau a turning locking drill (where the techniques are found 100% in Chinto Kata too), to incorporate more tai chi technique.
At the highest levels of Yang is San Shou a 2 person 88 technique two person exercise. At one sense it's push hands, at another it's very real very very advanced technique usage of yang.
My instructor also practices Wu Tai Chi Chaun, a more complex derivative of the Yang, and it also has similar and different push hand practices and two person sets.
Unfortunately living far from my instructor I've only had limited exposure to the two person sets, but they're interesting.
I do recommend Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's two books from the early 80's on Advanced Tai Chi Chaun, as well as the available video he offers for those interested. It's not my Yang practice (from Ernest Rothrock) but similar and good, IMO.
And interesting, a counterpoint on the Yang derived from Chen Tai Chi Chaun, apparently in China, the Yang stylists seem not to consider Chen tai chi, but a derivative of Shaolin (the Shaolin temple is in the Chen Village neighborhood). Of course that's just gossip I've heard (and read I believe in Dr. Yang's writings too), but why should tai chi be different from everyone else.
Hope I haven't made this too impossible to follow.
Pleasantly and hope for World Peace in 2006
Victor Smith
Point well taken Bill. In my mind this is what separates the martial arts perspective from the typical sports perspective in the West. In reaching the level that Bill describes it becomes more of an inner personal journey of lifetime exploration. At that level you don't need the outside motivation of a coach/sensei pushing you to the next goals, the competition is strictly with yourself.
Not a lot of sports/physical activities allow for this though, they generally focus on the sport/competition aspect and if you cannot compete with others than you cannot, or should not, do it. There are some exceptions, such as running, swimming, weight-lifting, and the martial arts. But you don't see a lot of people out practicing basketball skills individually just for the sake of doing it.
Unfortunately I don't think that many martial artists reach that level either. Like Bill says, a lot don't learn how to teach themselves and never go beyond only trying to satisfy the goals (rank) set by the sensei. Eventually they fade away from the endeavor.
Not to say there is anything wrong with sports or competition, or any of the millions of reasons why a person may take up an activity. Just that there is a difference in perspective, and often longevity, between doing it for yourself and do it for a sensei/coach.
Just some ramblings.
Not a lot of sports/physical activities allow for this though, they generally focus on the sport/competition aspect and if you cannot compete with others than you cannot, or should not, do it. There are some exceptions, such as running, swimming, weight-lifting, and the martial arts. But you don't see a lot of people out practicing basketball skills individually just for the sake of doing it.
Unfortunately I don't think that many martial artists reach that level either. Like Bill says, a lot don't learn how to teach themselves and never go beyond only trying to satisfy the goals (rank) set by the sensei. Eventually they fade away from the endeavor.
Not to say there is anything wrong with sports or competition, or any of the millions of reasons why a person may take up an activity. Just that there is a difference in perspective, and often longevity, between doing it for yourself and do it for a sensei/coach.
Just some ramblings.
Glenn
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Stryke
not a comment on you Dana , just on the lack of input from anyone elsePatience. The thread is a sticky because I knew I'd be swamped with work and wouldn't be able to post anything until the new year. But I keep it up there in my own face so I remember what I promised myself I'd do. Not dead...just waiting for me to get unburied from work and holiday rush.
I was just under the impression there were some uechi folks waiting to get into the conversation
any Uechi folks here discussing it willing to contribute to how ?
I've recently discovered instructional martial-arts VCDs from Hong Kong. They each focus on a specific form (kata), one on Bak Mei's "9-step Push" form, one on Hung Gar's "Taming the Tiger" form, and one on Hung Gar's "Tiger/Crane" form. There are many others available, including on the various Tai Chi styles, and some cover other training aspects besides just forms, for example there are VCDs on Tai Chi Push Hands.
On the plus side they each cover a single form in detail over a period of about an hour, showing it at normal speed several times from different camera angles and then breaking it down into sections and showing them at normal and slow speeds. Some of them, if there is enough space left on the VCD, also include some applications at normal and slow speeds. In general the ones I've seen have been very well designed for instruction.
Also on the plus side they are a lot cheaper than DVDs, with the VCDs on Ebay usually running about $5-$8 each and that includes shipping.
On the minus side, they are only in Cantonese and Mandarin, with no English on them at all.
Still, I've found them a great way to explore forms/styles that I would have no hope of seeing otherwise.
Here is a website that lists a large number of VCDs available, and they sell them as well:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd-title.htm
On the plus side they each cover a single form in detail over a period of about an hour, showing it at normal speed several times from different camera angles and then breaking it down into sections and showing them at normal and slow speeds. Some of them, if there is enough space left on the VCD, also include some applications at normal and slow speeds. In general the ones I've seen have been very well designed for instruction.
Also on the plus side they are a lot cheaper than DVDs, with the VCDs on Ebay usually running about $5-$8 each and that includes shipping.
On the minus side, they are only in Cantonese and Mandarin, with no English on them at all.
Still, I've found them a great way to explore forms/styles that I would have no hope of seeing otherwise.
Here is a website that lists a large number of VCDs available, and they sell them as well:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd-title.htm
about VCD's: Spend an hour with a Master For Under $10!
It's hard to describe these VCDs without wild enthusiasm! Each VCD is a gem--rarely seen forms and styles, taught and performed by Chinese teachers , and each under $10! Curious about Ba Ji or Xing Yi? Want to add new takedowns to your Chin Na applications? Have you ever seen (or heard of) The Five Animal Frolics, a traditional QiGong based on - well, you guessed it - the five martial animals? And what martial artist couldn't benefit from a rare version of the Wooden Dummy Form? Or the sword that inspired the Japanese Ken? When we first came across these VCDs, we thought they were too good to be true - but we were wrong. They are an exceptional value, and one that we at Plum are proud to offer at these low prices.
Don't be mistaken: narration is all in Chinese, but this shouldn't stop you. The instruction is extremely clear (some of the best we've seen on any film) and the performances need no sound at all. We wouldn't recommend these if we thought this was a problem. As for playing them: you can watch them on your PC*, your MAC**, and even on most DVD players***. All computer software can be downloaded free from the Internet.
Glenn
, will check them out