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 Post subject: Dim-Mak, or Dim-Wits?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:58 pm 
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Tell your doctors goodbye folks,
Let the healing touch of "Dim-Mak" cure all your ills.

NOTE: In this thread, I am not disputing the concept of pressure points where they are used to administer joint locks or initiate immediate severe pain or trauma.
However, what I am questioning, is the belief that "Dim-mak" techniques in relation to "Ki"/"Chi", "meridians","life-force" acupuncture, Reiki, and other "Ancient", "mystical" nonsense.

http://www.newstarget.com/007545.html

http://www.dimmak.net/

Now, here's a guy who says that he has researched the "Science" behind Dim-mak:

http://www.dimmak.net/dr_michael_kelly.htm

Dr.Kelly is reportedly has a D.O. in Osteopathic Medicine.

Here are some links pro:
http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/index.asp
and con:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEdu ... osteo.html

Interestingly, I can find no information relating to his scientific studies, but rather, he wants you to buy the book, in which is touted:

"Death Touch: The Science Behind The Legend of Dim Mak, By Dr. Michael Kelly This is the first book on dim mak written by a medical doctor. Dr. Kelly uses modern medical science to explain the true dangers and deadly effects of dim mak. In addition, he teaches how to use modern medical science to find and develop deadly dim mak techniques. This book proves that there are lethal points on the body and shows how to attack them. Includes chapters on knockouts, delayed death, organ attacks, revival, synergistic combinations, and finding hidden dim mak techniques. Forward by Erle Montaigue."

(Also note, the person who I assume is supposed to provide credibility, is one Erle Montaique who apparently is a leader in the "qi gong" world)
http://tinyurl.com/739zx

Red Flag?... anyone?

Now my first question would be:

Aside from the dubiousness of a claim that "Dim-Mak" is a valid "therapy" at all, or for that matter, even exists at all outside the realm of fantasy, Why would a reported Medical Doctor attempt to study and distribute for a FEE, techniques purportedly used for killing people? Isn't that contrary to what a healer is supposed to do?
Isn't that somewhat professionally irresponsible?

Specifically, I find amazing the claims of:

"Revival"...Huh? So you knock someone out and use "Dim-Mak" to "revive" them, is that it? Sounds like a rather incredible claim to me.

"Synergistic combinations":
Strange..I have no idea what this term means in this context. Sounds like a made-up buzz word to me.


A "Synergy" in itself is the combination of separate elements directed together for a new purpose or action. So, "Synergistic combinations" would be combinations of combinations? Hmmmm...Sounds....interesting.
:roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:43 am 
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"Aside from the dubiousness of a claim that "Dim-Mak" is a valid "therapy" at all, or for that matter, even exists at all outside the realm of fantasy, Why would a reported Medical Doctor attempt to study and distribute for a FEE, techniques purportedly used for killing people? Isn't that contrary to what a healer is supposed to do?
Isn't that somewhat professionally irresponsible?"

Not really. A man can have two professions. I do medicine and karate and have taught both. I taught responsible karate. It was to be used for self defense and avoiadance was emphasized. That's taking care of my "patients."

Erle Montaique is however totally FOS. I've seen some of his books and his medical explanations and warnings are pure fantasy.

"Revival"...Huh? So you knock someone out and use "Dim-Mak" to "revive" them, is that it? Sounds like a rather incredible claim to me."

Why not? We use medicine to knock people out and revive them. Would have to discuss more to say more.

"A "Synergy" in itself is the combination of separate elements directed together for a new purpose or action. So, "Synergistic combinations" would be combinations of combinations? Hmmmm...Sounds....interesting."

Synergistic combination is a reasonable phrase to distinguish combinations that have multiplicative activity over ones that are merely additive or even counterporductive. You may doubt their existence, but that's another story.

Who's read the book?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:42 am 
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IJ wrote:

Not really. A man can have two professions. I do medicine and karate and have taught both. I taught responsible karate. It was to be used for self defense and avoiadance was emphasized. That's taking care of my "patients."


Right, and I do agree.
But I doubt you are teaching them techniques that strictly kill.
I was attempting to point out the paradox between a healer and a death dealer.
If it is your "job" to be both, say as a SpecOps Medic, then it is understandable. However this person is not in such a situation, and I would argue that the Hippocratic Oath trumps the argument in most cases.
Personally, I would consider a teacher of any sort of strictly offensive death dealing arts who also claimed to be a healer to be abhorrent and a dishonor to their profession as such.
Note: To clarify, An M.D. who practices and teaches Karate for the mental, physical and self-defense benefits would not qualify from my blasting as negative judicator in this case. However, an M.D., who sells tobacco out of his home, or guns under the table, or for that matter a fighting art which emphasizes on only offensive rather than also defensive techniques WITH (This is important) the MINDSET that they be used and tested on the street, and even worse, selling this "technique" as one would sell Jelly beans, would indeed qualify.




Meta: "Revival"...Huh? So you knock someone out and use "Dim-Mak" to "revive" them, is that it? Sounds like a rather incredible claim to me."
IJ wrote:
Why not? We use medicine to knock people out and revive them. Would have to discuss more to say more.


Meta: Agreed, but I was being overly sarcastic, because Dim Mak is, I feel, non existent in the context which the author is describing it. In most cases, it is my understanding that save blunt force trauma to the chest, one usually requires machines or drugs to stop/restart the heart, not a mystical; "touch here," then "twist the thumb there," then "rotate the left ear counter clockwise" and say: "Boo!!" :D

Meta:
"A "Synergy" in itself is the combination of separate elements directed together for a new purpose or action. So, "Synergistic combinations" would be combinations of combinations? Hmmmm...Sounds....interesting."

IJ wrote:
Synergistic combination is a reasonable phrase to distinguish combinations that have multiplicative activity over ones that are merely additive or even counterporductive. You may doubt their existence, but that's another story.


Meta:
I'll submit to that explanation, since perhaps in that context, most of us deal with it on a daily basis.
However, for the purposes of this conversation, the author is obviously using words out of context to obfuscate the reader, and also to make it sound as if he knows what he is talking about.

IJ wrote:
Who's read the book?


Meta:
I think I'd recommend passing this one up.
For example, one does not need to read a book on using "Chi" to open a portal to another dimension in order to make an educated guess that, as the Scottish say..."EHHTS AH LOWD A' KRRAAHP! "
:lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:40 pm 
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Dr. Kelly has posted on these forums in the past.

Perhaps he'll swing by and answer some of your questions.

you'd probably enjoy reading this thread for reference:
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... elly#43720

and this one on the book.

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... elly#43824


-dana

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:17 pm 
As a martial artist whose background includes advanced training in Traditional Chinese medicine, let me say unequivically that there are indeed acupuncture points on the body that are capable of resuscitating or restoring consciousness,as well as some others capable of sealing the breath, interrupting bloodflow to the brain, and affecting Heart rhythms that can have terminal consequences. However, in my opinion reckless dissimination of this information is as irresponsible as posting details for bomb making on the internet.

T.R. Joiner


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
Dr. Kelly has posted on these forums in the past.

Perhaps he'll swing by and answer some of your questions.

you'd probably enjoy reading this thread for reference:
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... elly#43720

and this one on the book.

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... elly#43824


-dana



Dana,
Thanks for that!
:D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:24 pm 
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T.R. Joiner wrote:
As a martial artist whose background includes advanced training in Traditional Chinese medicine, let me say unequivically that there are indeed acupuncture points on the body that are capable of resuscitating or restoring consciousness,as well as some others capable of sealing the breath, interrupting bloodflow to the brain, and affecting Heart rhythms that can have terminal consequences.
T.R. Joiner


Meta:
I wonder if you could perhaps elaborate on some of these issues, from a technical perspective, perhaps?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:14 pm 
From what I've read (mostly montaigue, and from the pantazi group), the chi persons "medical" explanations are patenly absurd. They always want to remind you a "branch of the ___ vein" lies underneath their deadly point. Well, there's a branch of some vein everywhere. And there's not a good correlation between their enthusiasm for any point and any convincing medical reason. The fact they toss in irrelevant anatomical factoids just reinforces the view they have little medical explanation. Then there are endless unproven unsubstantiated medical claims, such as, needle this point and you become infertile. Would love to see that tested! We're just to take their word for it or something.

Now, they may well work for KOs--on some, if done right, etc. That's another story. And some may work for medical reasons. Kelly sets out to explain them; I have not read the book because I don't payt for what I can't sample. But PhD Bill Sensei has read it and liked most of the content--can we get his views?

The hippocratic oath isn't set out to deal with self defense situations. If I'm in some conflict where I may have to fight for my life or someone I know may have to... I'm use my medical knowledge to harm if the opportunity presents itself. I'll do whatever I have to to protect myself or others. Not doing so would be allowing harm to occur, and if you link inaction and harm, as I do, that's breaking rule one: "first do no hamr."

Agreed I'm not selling the books willynilly... but then if you want to become a killer in today's society, you don't read academic texts on pressure points, you buy a gun and shoot someone.

I would love any established or plausible medical theories about dim mak points from anyone who has them. Bill, Kelly, or TR. I promise not to misuse em.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:19 am 
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Secretly, I wished Dim-Mak DID work.
Because I have this neighbor of mine who keeps stealing my newspaper, and worse, he thinks I don't know it's him, and he always wants to shake my hand when he walks by my gate.

I'd like to learn the Dim-Mak technique which allows me to shake his hand in a certain way, then about an hour later he continuously craps his pants for a day or so.

:lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: More about Dim Mak
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:45 pm 
Greetings Metablade:

I found your comment about shaking the hand of your sticky fingered neighbor quite hilarious. As far as elaborating on the subject of Dim Mak from a technical perspective, I probably could but sense that it would further degrade martial arts rather than elevate it. My point was that entering into an open discussion about the existence of Dim Mak points (for lack of a better term)
without divulging their exact location would be fruitless. Insights into the subject are readily available to any one who is willing to put the time and energy into studying anatomy, physiology, point location the Horary clock's influence on organ functioning etc., all subjects which are part of the curriculum for T.C.M. study. Exposing interested party’s to specific details is in my opinion best done in a clinical situation, given the certainty for abuse if such information was "easy to come by." Therefore, I stand by my original idea that the less said the better. I happen to be from the old school of thought that some aspects of martial study should rightfully not be easily accessible to the general public. I honestly believe that it would far better to emphasize how the practice of martial arts teaches us to live rather than emphasizing how it teaches us to kill.

TR Joiner


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:20 pm 
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Hello TR Joiner,
And thank you for your reply.
It appears that you do not wish to discuss the locations of the alleged Dim Mak points for ethical reasons?
If I am not correct, please advise.

I too, do not necessarily feel the need to discuss the locations, however, the crux of my question was to ask if you could share what knowledge you may have on exactly why you believe that they work from a technical perspective, as you had said:
"As a martial artist whose background includes advanced training in Traditional Chinese medicine".

I felt that perhaps you may have some insight.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:29 am 
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I wouldn't worry.

Killers have access to better (faster, cheaper, more reliable, easier) methods to kill and won't be spending much time learning dim mak for the purpose. I don't even think the general public reads this page. Or perhaps we could use code words to avoid being googled. But we certainly can talk about stuff that's already readily accessible such as the montaigue book.

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