Gi Color

[AAAhmed46]

Pff admit it rick!

Black looks better!

[John Giacoletti]

Deflect, grab, control. Those are components of the Uechi circular "blocks." "Control" is not only holding the opponent in place but more importantly pulling the opponent into your strike or kick thereby increasing the acceleration of the closure and thus creating a greater impact with your technique. A lot of street clothing just doesn't hold up under these conditions.

Training in street clothing, to me, may be an indication that your training is solo. Or just for workout purposes. Training in street clothing, to me, as Rick Wilson points out, results in all sorts of ripped, torn and shreaded clothing.

A good heavy weight cotton gi, while not impervious to tears, does stand up pretty well but will tear if you are being slung around a lot.

More importantly, street clothing doesn't protect against those hard Uechi squeezes and pinches which result in all sorts of blood blisters and severe contusions particularly to the upper arms, especially the softer inside of the biceps and the triceps.

Proper gi pants have a gussett which allows for freedom and flexibility in kicking and floor level stretching exercises which isn't afforded by most pants or jeans.

[MikeK]

Deflect, grab, control. Those are components of the Uechi circular "blocks." "Control" is not only holding the opponent in place but more importantly pulling the opponent into your strike or kick thereby increasing the acceleration of the closure and thus creating a greater impact with your technique. A lot of street clothing just doesn't hold up under these conditions.

John, thanks for help making my argument, I owe you one.
My jujutsu sensei noticed the same thing and switched from a heavy duty gi to one that was much lighter. For self defense training clothes are secondary for having a technique work.

More importantly, street clothing doesn't protect against those hard Uechi squeezes and pinches which result in all sorts of blood blisters and severe contusions particularly to the upper arms, especially the softer inside of the biceps and the triceps.

I had plenty of those in CDT. When training soft hand techniques like pinches feedback is important for both parties.

[Glenn]

Deflect, grab, control. Those are components of the Uechi circular "blocks." "Control" is not only holding the opponent in place but more importantly pulling the opponent into your strike or kick thereby increasing the acceleration of the closure and thus creating a greater impact with your technique. A lot of street clothing just doesn't hold up under these conditions.

Ideally to control someone we should be controlling/pulling on the person, not the clothing. The techniques should work even if your opponent has no clothes. A lot of torn clothing could indicate not truly being able to control the opponent, that there is too much just blindly grabbing at anything and flailing...sort of the way I do it!

Training in street clothing, to me, may be an indication that your training is solo. Or just for workout purposes. Training in street clothing, to me, as Rick Wilson points out, results in all sorts of ripped, torn and shreaded clothing.

I prefer to not make assumptions about how other people train just based on their clothing preferences.

A good heavy weight cotton gi, while not impervious to tears, does stand up pretty well but will tear if you are being slung around a lot.

More importantly, street clothing doesn't protect against those hard Uechi squeezes and pinches which result in all sorts of blood blisters and severe contusions particularly to the upper arms, especially the softer inside of the biceps and the triceps.

And that should be an important lesson about what to expect in a fight. It should also be an indication about our ability to cause this type of pain/injury on an opponent wearing heavy clothing.

Not that I've found a gi to be much protection from these. As for the arms even when someone in class wears a gi the norm is to role the sleeves up.

Proper gi pants have a gussett which allows for freedom and flexibility in kicking and floor level stretching exercises which isn't afforded by most pants or jeans.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with working out in gi pants if that is your preference, I do it occassionally particularly when I am focusing on a health-benefit flexibility workout where gi pants or sweats work best. But for technique training my personal preference is to train in something that has the same freedom and flexibility as what I would be wearing in a real fight.

[Glenn]

When training soft hand techniques like pinches feedback is important for both parties.

I was thinking about this too Mike. Being able to feel these techniques performed on light clothing/bare skin and to not feel them on heavy clothing is important feedback for both partners in the technique.

[John Giacoletti]

Thanks Glenn,

You have much more finesse than I.

Ideally to control someone we should be controlling/pulling on the person, not the clothing. The techniques should work even if your opponent has no clothes.

When I do a waukee, I grab a handful of crotch with one hand and I got a bushiken to the throat with the other.

I do not mentally process the composition of the handful of crotch.

This is a push-pull application from bo training. Pull with one arm, "push" with the other. Hopefully, you can tilt the son-of-b**** over, drop to one knee and bust his back over the other.

My apologies to those of you who are critical of the effectiveness of Uechi techniques in a street application.

[MikeK]

John, I don't believe that anybody is being critical of Uechi applications for the street, but just some techniques that to some are overly dependent on clothing.

, I grab a handful of crotch with one hand and I got a bushiken to the throat with the other.
...
Hopefully, you can tilt the son-of-b**** over, drop to one knee and bust his back over the other.

I've seen that technique described in every style I've studied including TKD and have yet to see anybody do it. Do you guys practice that one?

[John Giacoletti]

Mike wrote:

My jujutsu sensei noticed the same thing and switched from a heavy duty gi to one that was much lighter. '

What a humanitarian!

But I understand the point that it's best to let your workout partner know that he/she needs to back off or ease up a bit. Very practical. Some places utilize the tapping out procedure ... you slap your pant leg, wrist, the floor, whatever, to signal for a relaxation of the technique.

Master Tosh mainifested a different point of view ... he believed that a little bit of hurt was part of the learning process. And to experience a Uechi grab and squeeze was the best way to teach how effective it was.

In kotekeitai the usual protocal is to let the partner set the level of contact and then adjust from there. When it reaches a little beyond discomfort, you ease off on your return technique and the partner responds accordingly.

I think it's probable that the effusive criticisim of some Uechi masters from Okinawa resulted in an easing off in the transmittal of some of the more dangerous, hurtful techniques so that only the nice, soft guys got invited back in some quarters and that some of the mean sob's who really had some of the rough and ready effective techniques got left off the next year's Christmas card list.

And back to the original topic ... Fred C. is absolutely correct that the white gi is Japanese and from judo. If you look at the early photos of the Okinawan Karate Masters from before WWII you will note they wore black robes and there are numerous photos of Uechi Kanbun Sensei and Uechi Kanei Sensei in these black ceremonial robes.

[John Giacoletti]

My quote and then Mike's reply:

I grab a handful of crotch with one hand and I got a bushiken to the throat with the other.
...
Hopefully, you can tilt the son-of-b**** over, drop to one knee and bust his back over the other.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've seen that technique described in every style I've studied including TKD and have yet to see anybody do it. Do you guys practice that one?
_________________

Sensei Martin teaches that you grab what you can get and hit what you can.

We are not allowed to practice that technique for obvious reasons.

But Master Shinyu Guishi is our "grand master" and after you get to know him and he gains your trust and respect his message is a little different from the initial seminars:

Uechi Ryu is not for "gentlemen." The Uechi he teaches is for fighting and it's what he learned from the first generation of Uechi Kanbun Sensei's students when the art was called Pangainoon. It's the art prior to the concessions made in the style to the Japanese to remove the grappling maneuvers, the trend to sport karate and the softening of the art by Kanei Uechi Sensei to make it more palatable to US servicemen. The eyes, the throat, the genitals, the knees .. those targets ring the Uechi cashregister for payoffs.

Cunning, deception, fakes, scratching and raking with the fingers and knuckles, misleading the attacker, brass knuckles, jiffa (three pointed fist) any thing to gain an advantage, hit and get out.

[Van Canna]

John,

What you write is very interesting because of similar discussions I have had with Breyette sensei relating Toyama sensei's experiences under Kanbun sensei.

 It's the art prior to the concessions made in the style to the Japanese to remove the grappling maneuvers, the trend to sport karate and the softening of the art by Kanei Uechi Sensei to make it more palatable to US servicemen.<

Could you explain this in more detail?

[-Metablade-]

Just an FYI:

The Japanese word "Gi" isn't really used to describe the traditional Budo uniform. The proper word is actually "Keikogi"
(Kayee-ko-gee)
The only reason I bring it up at all, is because when Western practitioners call the uniform a "Gi" I have to hold my breath to avoid giggling, because in that context, the word Gi is associated with the word "SHITA-GI (Shta-gi) which means or all things: Underwear!
Like "Fruit of the loom" kind of underwear!


Sensei: Alright class, let's go put on our skivvies have a great workout today!



I can only imagine that the word "Keikogi" was shortened in the 50's when Budo first came to America, perhaps due to the language barrier.

But hey, Tomato, Tomahto,
Whuteveah!


But other than that, you guys are lucky.

I have to wear a pleated dress!

[MikeK]

We are not allowed to practice that technique for obvious reasons.

Use a wrestling dummy.

I think it's probable that the effusive criticisim of some Uechi masters from Okinawa resulted in an easing off in the transmittal of some of the more dangerous, hurtful techniques so that only the nice, soft guys got invited back in some quarters and that some of the mean sob's who really had some of the rough and ready effective techniques got left off the next year's Christmas card list.

Believe it or not there are people who can transmit the information without causing undo damage to someone. Few benefit from training that does more harm than good.

But Master Shinyu Guishi is our "grand master" and after you get to know him and he gains your trust and respect his message is a little different from the initial seminars:

Uechi Ryu is not for "gentlemen." The Uechi he teaches is for fighting and it's what he learned from the first generation of Uechi Kanbun Sensei's students when the art was called Pangainoon. It's the art prior to the concessions made in the style to the Japanese to remove the grappling maneuvers, the trend to sport karate and the softening of the art by Kanei Uechi Sensei to make it more palatable to US servicemen. The eyes, the throat, the genitals, the knees .. those targets ring the Uechi cashregister for payoffs.

Cunning, deception, fakes, scratching and raking with the fingers and knuckles, misleading the attacker, brass knuckles, jiffa (three pointed fist) any thing to gain an advantage, hit and get out.

Wow, I never would have seen those things in Uechi!
Actually John, what you're saying might confirm some things I've suspected about Uechi-Ryu.

[Glenn]

The Japanese word "Gi" isn't really used to describe the traditional Budo uniform. The proper word is actually "Keikogi"
(Kayee-ko-gee)

Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard that term before. We always refer to it as "dogi" at my dojo.

The only reason I bring it up at all, is because when Western practitioners call the uniform a "Gi" I have to hold my breath to avoid giggling, because in that context, the word Gi is associated with the word "SHITA-GI (Shta-gi) which means or all things: Underwear!
Like "Fruit of the loom" kind of underwear!

That's appropriate though, have you seen the pictures of Uechi Ryu training before WWII (for example in George's books), when they wore only what appears to be, and has been described as, underwear?

[MikeK]

I liked this story by Hayes.

Keynote address to the 1998 NAPMA Martial Arts Professional Convention

by Stephen K. Hayes

Sometime during my first few years of living in Japan, I discovered the temple and graveyard dedicated to the famous forty-seven ronin of Japanese history. I went to the temple with a Japanese friend who explained the story of the forty-seven men who gave their own lives in order to avenge the honor of their leader who had been tricked into committing a breach of etiquette for which he was executed.

In the temple museum display, I saw what looked like an old and well-worn off-white judo gi, with its short sleeved jacket and short-legged pants. I commented to my Japanese friend, "Little guys in those days, huh? Short legs and arms on that gi."

My friend looked uncomfortable, as though guessing whether or not I was joking. He took a breath and explained that judo wasn't invented until the late 1800s. That was not an old judo gi up there with the kimono and swords, but rather a suit of one of the forty-seven warrior's samurai underwear. Short legs and sleeves fit inside a silk kimono. Feudal Japanese warriors took off their silk kimono to be dressed in that white underwear for rough sweaty martial arts training. It was the equivalent of stripping down to boxers and T-shirt or tank-top for athletic training today. My friend acknowledged that maybe that was why I associated the underwear with a martial arts gi.

I stood and stared at that underwear I had mistaken for a gi. It dawned on me that back in America in the 1960s, I had been taught a special way to fold my gi at the end of a workout, place it before me, and bow to it before leaving the training hall. Uncomfortably, I had to consider the comical ramifications of solemnly "bowing to my underwear" back in those days of karate training in Ohio.

Here's the rest of the keynote

[-Metablade-]

Just a Nitpick,

Technically, the word "GI" should not be used by itself, but rather in conjunction with a subject:

Such as:

Budogi (Japanese Budo uniform)
Jujutsugi( Jiujitsu uniform)
Aikidogi (Aikido uniform)
Judogi (Judo uniform)
Kendogi (Kendo uniform)
Karategi (Karate uniform)


BTW "Dogi" is ok as well, just a little off the mainstream.

~But we must not forget the most important of GI all, which is the

"Bugiwugi"

(Used for the ancient art of dancing to Glenn Miller)