Gi Color

[f.Channell]

A Shureido if worn in a street fight would be shredded in about 30 seconds.
We often think in terms of all the pressure being applied in the pull but also think of trying to desperately get away from their grip.
Usually we are much more compliant than this in Kumite or Bunkai.
I was jumped at a bachelor party 16 years ago by two guys and my heavy polo shirt didn't last 5 seconds.

We did a grappling style Dan Kumite 3 years ago in Vans "chamber" and after point 2 Fedele and I were minus a sleeve each .

I especially love the Uechi guys who pull you down on top of them during the takedown on point 6. Now there's using your head.

F.

[Van Canna]

Meta,

You always give me a chuckle. A good lesson in not taking ourselves too seriously in this stuff.

We often think in terms of all the pressure being applied in the pull but also think of trying to desperately get away from their grip.

Excellent. We never hear this in the dojo. Something to think about and to find ways of practicing without destroying uniforms.

And a ‘grip’ on your clothing can happen to your back as in someone [multiple opponents] getting a hold of your jacket collar, coat tails, belt, or any piece of clothing_ as you try to get away or tenshin_

This one favorite dirty trick of defensive soccer players who in ‘the mix’ within the goal area _ often will grab the shirt tail of the penetrating attacker about to kick the ball and pull them ‘off course’ _



As you know Fred, another thing that will happen in fights, is your shirt/coat being pulled over your head, blinding you and tying you up while in ‘pummeling mode’ _

This is where a good head-butt is golden.

Do we ever practice any of this, and how?

A good way would be to buy half a dozen of T -shirts at summer camp and practice under the tent.

Fight two guys_ as you engage one head on, his buddy from behind folds the T-shirt over your head.

[Arbie]

Hockey Fight Canna Sensei

[Stryke]

train in a heavy gi , or street clothes .

I beleive a heavy Gi is one of the great training aids one can have .

How does one learn to grapple when there afraid to tear there clothes .....

It is easier to throw someone with a heavy gi , and easier to learn the lessons of throwing , and once learnt the gi isnt so necessary any more ....

how do we grab and beat the crap out of folks without whining about the torn t shirts , answer is we dont and were not ready because of it .

Ive tried some of this stuff without a gi , I can do a collar choke with a t shirt .. sure it messes it up .... but it messes up the victim er partner too .

So I say train both , use the tool for what it is .

how many have worn heavy jackets ? well tailored shirts hold up well ..... suit jackets aint so flimsy ....

and if you want to train at a more realistic level dont cry when i complete my technique and destroy your play gi at the same time .

that is unless of course such techniques are forbidden by the rules ... then i`ll behave and line up and bow with the rest of em ....

[John Giacoletti]

John,

What you write is very interesting because of similar discussions I have had with Breyette sensei relating Toyama sensei's experiences under Kanbun sensei.

 It's the art prior to the concessions made in the style to the Japanese to remove the grappling maneuvers, the trend to sport karate and the softening of the art by Kanei Uechi Sensei to make it more palatable to US servicemen.<

Could you explain this in more detail?
_________________
Van Canna

Bill Glasheen had an interesting thread on Gushi a couple of years ago after working out with Gushi at a Seminar hosted by Ric Lostreto. Bill is much more qualified than I to describe or evaluate the Guishi version of Uechi-Ryu.

Guishi's two main instructors were senior students of Kanbun Uechi ... Saburo Uehara and Seiyu Shinjo. He also trained under Seiko Itokazu.

Seiko Toyama was born in 1928; Guishi in 1938. Toyama was a friend and training partner of Seiyu Shinjo but I do not believe he was a student of Seiyu Shinjo.

If you look at Ryuko Tomoyose in his Crane Stance in the Seisan jump you will notice his posture is nearly straight and his his right arm is at a 90 deg. angle in preparation for the forward jump and chop. Sensei Guishi, in contrast, has a more rounded posture with his shoulders slightly forward and the abdominal region drawn in for protection. Guishi's right elbow points forward and down so that the ribcage is protected by his elbow and forarm and is not open as in Ryuko's case. The forward curvature is also evident in his Sanchin. An oversimplification is ... where Nakamatsu has an angle or straight line in his posture, Guishi has a curve. Guishi's signature kata is San Sei Ryu and there is no one who performs the opening double block better. He is wiry and pliant, coiled like a snake, very tough and rubbery. His body moves in ripples of graceful muscular tension combined with whip-like snapping kicks and strikes. He is ninth dan in Uechi ryu and also ninth dan in Okinawan kobudo. Until a couple of years ago his favorite demo was snapping a 2 x 2 with his sokusen toe kick. One of his favorite techniques is a quick one handed wrist strike to an opponent's leading hand which then rebounds and careens into a finger tip ripping eye strike. If the opponent backs off he simultaneously executes a front kick to the groin. The wrist flick is a distracting move, setting up the eye strike and front kick.

Guishi is a cordial, warm personality. He loves to golf and fish. If you get to the dojo early he will work for hours with you or one or two others and go over all your kata (karate or kobudo) with you and help you with any technique questions. Kids love him. He's our dojo "grandpa." He and his wife participate in the odori dances in the LA Okinawan community. His oldest son is a master taicho drummer; his youngest son is a mechanic and Kyoshi in Uechi Ryu. His daughter also does the folk dances and is the translator for the family.

I've worked out with Master Guishi since the mid 1990's. He visits our dojo three or four times a year and stays four or five days at a time.

He'll be at Winterfest; and your experience with him will be a memorable one. He has signed my Sanchin Jars.

[Van Canna]

Hockey Fight Canna Sensei

Nice to see you here, Arbie. Yes, right on target.

[Van Canna]

John,

Thank you for the information on Gushi sensei.

He is in fact a great master and teacher. Once I had long discussions with one of his previous students, now gone, Athi Kaend, and we watched together a tape of Gushi sensei’s performance along with his sons.

But I may not have been clear in what I was asking.

I was more interested in your views of the style concessions to the Japanese, and how the ‘old style’ softened to be more palatable to US servicemen. The ‘mechanics’ of the softening.

What techniques underwent a ‘softening’ and how_

And how the style was directed _ and or modified _if you will_ to accommodate sport karate.

My information through Breyette sensei is that some senior students of Kanbun sensei "went underground" (citing Natsukichi Shimabukuro as one example)
because they did not wish to change their style from what they were taught.

In reading what you write, it seems that the message is that modern students show less willingness to study and preserve the
old, difficult way of original training as you point out.

And this is very interesting and should generate questions as to the ‘WHY’ _

[AAAhmed46]

train in a heavy gi , or street clothes .

I beleive a heavy Gi is one of the great training aids one can have .

How does one learn to grapple when there afraid to tear there clothes .....

It is easier to throw someone with a heavy gi , and easier to learn the lessons of throwing , and once learnt the gi isnt so necessary any more ....

how do we grab and beat the crap out of folks without whining about the torn t shirts , answer is we dont and were not ready because of it .

Ive tried some of this stuff without a gi , I can do a collar choke with a t shirt .. sure it messes it up .... but it messes up the victim er partner too .

So I say train both , use the tool for what it is .

how many have worn heavy jackets ? well tailored shirts hold up well ..... suit jackets aint so flimsy ....

and if you want to train at a more realistic level dont cry when i complete my technique and destroy your play gi at the same time .

that is unless of course such techniques are forbidden by the rules ... then i`ll behave and line up and bow with the rest of em ....

Good points.

But you must hate it in summer!

[f.Channell]

There's a book called "Goon" or something like that written by a guy I know.
He teaches fighting to the Providence Bruins.
The answer to the fighting with the shirt over the head may be in that.
Have to order it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159129 ... oding=UTF8


F.

[Van Canna]

John,

Above I wrote > What techniques underwent a ‘softening’ and how_ <

I also meant to write: what techniques, training methods, training drills, and concepts _ underwent a ‘softening’ and in what way.

I think this is very important to discuss so as to benefit the new generations of Uechi-ka.

Thank you.

Fred,

Do you have the book and can you discuss the essential points?

Also of interest should be the method the players use to generate punching power without a ‘firm grounding’ as we practice in Sanchin.

[f.Channell]

Hi Van,
Haven't gotten around to getting it yet.

Doug was a student of the Hanover club of Jack Summers Sensei when they taught Uechi and boxing. Boxing was taught by Bob Sullivan a Uechi black belt and golden gloves boxer. Bob is a good friend of mine and his exploits using martial arts as a police officer are often told to me by his friend and old partner.
Bob once told me a story of a boxing match he had and won where he pounded the guy repeatedly in the head while the guy gave him body shots.
although he won he peed blood for a week and only didn't go to the hospital because his dad didn't have insurance.
Strong argument for not trusting your Sanchin conditioning!

Doug who wrote the book is the kind of guy you want behind you in any situation. He didn't train in Uechi that I know of.

A lot can be learned from sports.

F.

[Van Canna]

Hi Fred,

I did meet Bob Sullivan. Great guy.

And Jack Summers, a Marine war hero, deadly practitioner and great friend.

Does he still teach in Quincy?

 Although he won he peed blood for a week and only didn't go to the hospital because his dad didn't have insurance.
Strong argument for not trusting your Sanchin conditioning! <

I agree. Internal organs cannot be conditioned and a student must understand the concepts of ‘sundome’ and ‘todome’ as I once posted on the forum.

Example: kidney area ‘conditioning’ no such thing, yet you see many give and take kidney shots for conditioning.

Conditioning is only up to a point.

‘Old Uechi’ had a different way of responding to an opponent.

To wit

Recall the report from the old Kyohon about Kanbun Sensei's demo with
Natsukichi Shimabukuro Senpai attacking him. Kanbun Sensei was actually
able to exchange places with his attacker. He moved around his attacker
like the wind.

Stepping back is still considered an elementary to intermediate stage of
fighting ability.

I once saw Toyama Sensei's stepping
for moving around an attacker in a very tight pattern - Sensei can actually
get behind you if you take a step forward; he can block and take the place
you were just standing on.

Food for thought.

[Bill Glasheen]

To me, the "softening" of Uechi Ryu isn't an act of commission. It's one of omission. In other words it's all there in the kata, but we spend most of our time in kumite and bunkai working on basics. It takes a while to get this stuff... But once you learn the basics of human movement, then you can add spice to the sauce.

I think the reasons most people don't see the Nasty in Uechi is because of the following:

* They do lots of sport sparring, and think that's the end point of their training.

* They don't develop their Uechi hands and toes.

* They never investigate the grappling half (yes, half) of Uechi

You can get pretty addicted to "boxing" Uechi style, and do quite well in a fight I might add. And with that addiction, you will neglect the essence of a style that never even had a seiken fist in the first place.

And why would the original style not have a seiken fist?

I never worried so much about "lost" aspects of Uechi Ryu. If you do some kind of grappling art (aikido, jiujitsu, judo, wrestling), you work your hands and toes, and you study kata applications, a lot of this stuff IMO just falls in your lap. Then you listen to people describe "lost techiques" in the system, and what they describe fits into what you see as an obvious trait of the system. IMO, of course...

One thought to share... My Goju/aikido/greenberet instructor had some interesting "halfway" measures for applying the Nasty in the fighting arts. For example, I can reach down and grab someone's gi right around their adductor muscle and just barely miss the gonads. But when you shoot down, smack, and grab the gi down there, your partner gets the point. And it does make for a nice "handle" to dump the person.

The rest you leave to your imagination.

I agree with the philosophy of Master Tosh that one needs to get a little Nasty now and then with this stuff. In class, I call it "tasting the hot sauce." For instance you don't need to hit the neck with your hirakens very hard to: 1) make the attacker crave hitting harder, and 2) convince the defender that this stuff really works.

As for the clothing... I love my Kwon "self defense" gis. They don't snap pretty like a Tokaido and they don't hold up quite like a judogi. But they do take a beating with the grapplers and don't seem to tear. My old one had belt loops on it where you could wear a real belt (for reality-based training), but they don't do that any more.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

I'm a big fan of the movement you describe. It was taught to me in aikido, The more I read old stories about how Kanbun ended up on someone's back and the more I practice the foot movement, the more I get what he was able to do.

But it takes lots and lots of practice to program in something that to most is not an "intuitive" way to approach a bad guy. I find this easier for a student to pick up in multiple partner randori or my chaos (barrroom brawl) drills. One you get out of the "duel" thinking mode, lots of possibilities become more intuitive.

- Bill

[jkolb]

To me, the "softening" of Uechi Ryu isn't an act of commission. It's one of omission. In other words it's all there in the kata, but we spend most of our time in kumite and bunkai working on basics. It takes a while to get this stuff... But once you learn the basics of human movement, then you can add spice to the sauce.

In my Uechi classes we focus almost exclusively on kata, kumite, and kanshiwa bunkai. These are all great and fun.

Over the summers and vacations when I'm home I train in Goju-ryu with a little bit of jujitsu thrown in. There they focus mostly on basics and bunkai (lots of take downs, grappling and mechanics). We would do a kata a few times and then do bunkai for most of the form. I've learned more about Uechi-ryu while practicing Goju-ryu simply because of the focus on application.

I'm a pretty low rank but it can be frustrating when I make the switch back to Uechi because then it's back to kumite. I really enjoy pulling forms apart and playing.