Deconstructing Funakoshi

[Stryke]

I agree George , I always define the kata as the style .

In fact I think theres a strong case to be made that each kata was a style unto itself at one point .

Uechi contradicts this though , as there is such a clear link between the big three , a link often less obvious in some other styles .

Uechi is a goldmine of thought ....

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

I was told at a Buddhist church we would chant Sutras who's meaning were lost with the language it was composed in. I wondered why ...

If we've lost the rhyme and reason for some set of exercises, why should we mindlessly repeat them?

[gmattson]

I believe there is a difference between mindlessly repeating movements where there is no chance of understanding them or learning anything from them and practicing things we may not understand until we 'do' understand it, such as scales in music or formulas in math or Uechi Kata.

[MikeK]

I have some background karate so to me it seemed obvious what is going on in the Uechi kata. So hats off to them.

I can't say the same for the Shotokan kata which have been cleaned up. Once I learn what a move is it's obvious but the intent is more hidden.

[Stryke]

things we may not understand until we 'do' understand it, such as scales in music or formulas in math or Uechi Kata.

With all due respect George , I can understand musical scales , how formulas work etc far before I can do them .

whats missing in a lot of the kata presentation is simply cause and effect .

having said that I value kata , and have application for most of what i do and am constantly finding more , so on that note I agree .

what i dont like is wait and you will see .

If a clear example cant be demonstrated directly by said teacher , I`d suggest running for the hills . Also if said teacher doesnt identify it as simply one possibility run for the hills .

what I think martial arts should build is an adaptive mind and body , this to me is best developed by exploration , not route learning .

I apologise if it sounds like i`m putting words in your mouth , deffinately not my intention .

I just dont beleive you can understand a process without having identified the outcome , goals objectives etc

[Stryke]

Hey Mike , i`m with you on the transperency of Uechi kata , I think the difference is in the kata progression rather than the alterations .

I think the shotokan kata list and learnign order has drastically confused things .

If we did start with the Naihanchi , or Kushanku , I beleive things could be quite different .

actually i beleive shotokan has subset groups that relate directly to each other , but thats a work in progress .

I also think Gion very directly fits/relates to Uechi though , unintentional or not .....

[Stryke]

oops Kanku dai , and Tekki Mike , though you probably get it

I call myself a shotokan stylist ... errr wait a minute I dont

[MikeK]

Marcus, Isshinryu was my first art a long time ago so I know those names too. I still do most of Seisan that I was learning back then. I really have to learn the ending sequence and just be done with it.

I've grown to like the Pinans but I have to wonder if they are metaphore heavy, which may be the case for most of the Shotokan kata. Not a bad thing if you know what the metaphores represent and quite efficient, but if you don't the techniques can hard to find. I'm thinking of joining PM's group to badger him about this.

what i dont like is wait and you will see .

I don't either but I've found some variations on that theme that I've come to understand. One is, you aren't ready and is a tough one to swallow but sometimes there are reasons.

The other is, you already know the answer go think about it. The second one is getting easier and the discovery of the meaning of those metaphores makes you smack yourself in the head wondering how you could have missed that all those years. Fun stuff.
Now sometimes though you need a teacher to show you a detail that isn't referenced in the kata. 95% of the technique is there in front of you, but that 5% will never be found. What makes it tougher to find is you'll find your own 5% solution to the move that will be pretty darn good and work just fine, but may not be the one that was passed down.

[Stryke]

One is, you aren't ready and is a tough one to swallow but sometimes there are reasons.

yeah the reson is your making me do the same ##### and not explaining anything .... I might as well learn from video tape ....

honestly Mike the only reason Ive found folks cant do things are these .

1) the havent practiced it enough within context .
2) too much bullshit and over complication of what is simple and natural .
3) not physically capable , in this case air punching and such isnt the answer

[MikeK]

The "aren't ready thing" was more about not having something else down first. Like balance, willingness to work inside or whatever would get in the way of making something work. The guy teaching me gave a seminar at a karate school where the black belts had no knowledge of how basic techniques worked. In their mind they had decided certain basic techniques from the kata didn't work and when he showed them how they worked they said he was working at a different level than they were. Until they got how the basics worked it would have been pointless to teach them applications from their kata.
So it's not always blowing smoke up the students ass but the student not really being ready either physically or mentally. I had a guy tell me that it's be cool to learn that killing shet. Do you think that person is ready to learn anything but a safe application of a move? I don't.

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

I believe there is a difference between mindlessly repeating movements where there is no chance of understanding them or learning anything from them and practicing things we may not understand until we 'do' understand it, such as scales in music or formulas in math or Uechi Kata.

Music and math have existing contexts which explain them. A major scale selects 7 of the 12 tones using a defined pattern. Minor and other scales use different patterns different notes (sometimes a different number) are chosen. Hows and whys are known. Rules exist.

Can you say the same about kata? I don't think all kata even have the same purpose, even different versions of the same kata. We were discussing different versions of the Goju sanchin, Higaonna's and Miyagi's ... Higaonna's seemed to have more combat application whereas Miyagi's focus is muscular developement. Without context, kata seems meaningless.

[Stryke]

I`m old school Mike , I never consider teaching such people anything .

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

Rob criticises the world of the early 1900's for not meeting our 21st century standards .. sorry, racism and nationalism and cultural imperialism was pretty much the norm all over the world during most of G Funakoshi's life.

Yeah, some of GF's karate moved from some Okinawan ideal into a college duelling society.

And none of us know what GF meant by Shorei Ryu, though Choku Motobu was supposed to be in a version of Shorei. Somehow Rob converts the word into Naha Ryu (or is it Te?)

If Rob's karate skill were anywhere near his skill in rhetoric ... it would scare me ... maybe everyone.

[JimHawkins]

This does not jive with the early contests and desire to document applications found in kata for fighting. There appears to be a very clear desire to find more effective combative methods.. Hard to believe coming from the Japanese Bushido folks I know...

Jim, on what do you base this?

On pretty much all of the reading I've done on the subject. I have some links on my other <temporarily dead> PC that talk about the diligent study made by some of the old, well known Oki 'masters' in trying to discover the 'secrets' of karate; How to make their fighting more effective and clear attempts to systemize it. One guy apparently put together a book of thousands of notes that he made on how to apply the art in fighting, that disappeared. Others had taken on challenges, mith mixed results and took the outcomes to heart.

I didn't not see any evidence whatsoever that would suggest that these karate innovators were not training as a means to an end - just as 99% of everyone on this board sees MA training as clearly indicated in Rick's old poll on Self Defense. These guys were no different than the Vans, Bills and Ricks, etc of this group who are constantly seeking to make their 'karate training' more effective from a SELF DEFENSE/COMBAT angle.

I keep asking myself how anyone could really see it any other way unless there is some kind of rationalization at work. I think George put it the best I've ever heard it explained when talking about why folks study Karate/MA in his book. Where's that quote George?

There is so much dancing around the issue, many folks don't want to "come clean" as to why they study.. But when someone comes to me and asks me to teach them I know all too well why...

You can see it in their eyes if you look hard enough.

[JimHawkins]

It`s ridicuous to presume there where not answers , All fighting is fighting , even the old masters would of come up with something practical if it wasnt in there , I have , style style style , I think not , two arms and two legs .

It's not about anatomy it's about training. Any style is a system of training and despite most folks having two arms and two legs there are crap ways to train and progressive, logical ways to train, depending on the objective.

the same ridiculousness crops up when comparing chinese to japanese , both styles could assimilate others material no worrys , its all the same after all .

Disagree.

There are a million different kinds of mechanics, methods, concepts and ways to train them. Some methods are in direct contradiction to others. One man cannot learn a thousand different ways he must finally specialize and choose what his method of training and fighting will be.

For example, folks cannot train to be stiff like a dead tree and also train to flow like water - at least not with good results for 99% of folks doing said training. THAT IMO is ridiculous.

do we presume the kata were plucked out of the air ? , the fact there is kata means there was application , or do we miss that ? , did not the application inspire the kata ? , a memonic tool for what exactly ?

who lost what while interesting is a little pointless , I`d love to know , the fact is it`s in there , and it`s up to good practitioners to draw it out .

If all I passed on was a couple of WCK kata to Joe Blow and friends without detailed explanations they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of reverse engineering even part of the system, let alone the amazingly detailed training progression that evolved over hundreds of years. If they were the only "inheritors" then the system would be quite dead. They could call it what they will, but it would be but a pale shadow of what was.

It's documented that many Oki's were taught that one need only train kata movements over and over, "to understand" because no prior understanding existed. I was thought that simply playing the kata trains one how to fight and we know that is not the case by a long-shot. The point is not about style vs. style, rather form vs. substance, a training progression/system vs. a misunderstood training supplement.

what i dont like is wait and you will see .

Well which is it..?

We're supposed to just "figure out" kata/karate or the teacher is supposed to actually know the meaning of the material and how it needs to be trained?

If a clear example cant be demonstrated directly by said teacher , I`d suggest running for the hills . Also if said teacher doesnt identify it as simply one possibility run for the hills .

If folks should head for the hills when a clear example can't be given then you'd have about 60% living in the hills. If you make the added stipulation that the example has to actually work and/or be practical then you have about 99% now hanging in the hills.

This is a serious issue because you have folks all over the place training one way and being told to fight another way. Train this but do this when you fight; Training that because of a lack of understanding, riddled with contradictions and guesswork - it can get folks killed.