Top Gun Technology Retired

[Bill Glasheen]

Rich

Yep - you got it right. When in high G-force turns, you Valsalva (strain like you're trying to make your face go red) to keep the blood from draining out of the brain and pooling down in your lower body. The pressure suit squeezes the blood out of your legs, and the Valsalva gets it out of the chest cavity and back up into your brain where you need it to keep from blacking out.

This is only for the healthy folks in good cardiovascular shape. You want a nice elastic blood vessel system in perfect order.

- Bill

[Glenn]

Baa Baa Black Sheep Volume 1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007Y ... ance&n=130

[TSDguy]

• Sophisticated missiles have made its specialty, aerial dogfighting, obsolete. Opposing aircraft target each other from miles away, often before the pilots can see each other except on radar.

While the aerial-combat environment has definitely changed, I am a little concerned if they are eliminating dogfighting ability from aircraft requirements. Just as soon as you eliminate a feature as obsolete, it will probably be needed.

Or maybe the history buff in me just makes me old-fashioned/nostalgic!

I not a military historian but I believe this is the reason the Tomcat was made in the first place. It's predecessors, the Phantoms, didn't even have any guns on them, only missiles. Like they tell as us the begining of Top Gun, "During the Korean War, the Navy kill ratio was twelve-to-one. We shot down twelve of their jets for every one of ours. In Vietnam, this ratio fell to three-to-one. Our pilots depended on missles. They lost their dogfighting skills."

The military made the mistake of thinking that everything could be done at extreme long range. Then people got ambushed into dogfights with no training, no guns, and planes not designed for the task.

[Glenn]

I not a military historian but I believe this is the reason the Tomcat was made in the first place. It's predecessors, the Phantoms, didn't even have any guns on them, only missiles. Like they tell as us the begining of Top Gun, "During the Korean War, the Navy kill ratio was twelve-to-one. We shot down twelve of their jets for every one of ours. In Vietnam, this ratio fell to three-to-one. Our pilots depended on missles. They lost their dogfighting skills."

The military made the mistake of thinking that everything could be done at extreme long range. Then people got ambushed into dogfights with no training, no guns, and planes not designed for the task.

Now that you mention it, this does ring a bell...that after initially moving away from dogfighting capabilities in the 1950s and 1960s, new aircraft in the 1970s were developed with dogfighting technology and maneuverability due to lessons learned in Vietnam.

[Glenn]

The back seater, a weapons systems operator - whizzo in Marinese - does not need perfect vision. Glasses are allowed!

Rich

Dang, no one told me this in the mid-80s...I missed out on my chance to blow things up!

But maybe they weren't doing this back then.

[Glenn]

A few years back I saw an interview on TV with a WWII marine pilot who had been in the Black Sheep. He said squadron veterens did not really appreciate the publicity that the TV show gave them in the late-1970s. At that time they were in their 50s, on average, and several were in high-profile careers such as law, politics, heads of businesses, etc...and here comes this popular TV show going overboard in portraying the Black Sheep squadron as a renegade outfit consisting of misfits, drunks, and outlaws. Not exactly the kind of image they wanted, particularly since it wasn't accurate.

[nosib]

Bill, 1st. combat misson of F-14 1974......Hmmm! Makes you a WEE lad of 19 or 20??????? he he he..

[RACastanet]

Did it come out? I heard something about the first season. But I'm not sure where.

Tom: I bought it this morning at Best Buy.

Rich

[Glenn]

Here is an interesting article on Boyington's most famous Corsair, #86 "Lulubelle" (although there apparently is some discrepancy that its name may have been "Lucybelle")
http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_boyington3.html

Actually the whole site is interesting, "American Aces of WWII"
http://www.acepilots.com/

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, 1st. combat misson of F-14 1974......Hmmm! Makes you a WEE lad of 19 or 20??????? he he he..

Yea, but I've been working on my chi. Now all my gray hair has gone away.

Yep!

- Bill

[Tom Faigle]

Here is an interesting article on Boyington's most famous Corsair, #86 "Lulubelle" (although there apparently is some discrepancy that its name may have been "Lucybelle")
http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_boyington3.html

Actually the whole site is interesting, "American Aces of WWII"
http://www.acepilots.com/

Glen,

Thanks so much. This was some great reading. The history on the design of the plan I've read in several sources. The rest of the matierial was great.

BTW, did you know that the real Pappy appeared on the TV show?

TF

[nosib]

I'am a member of the Experimental Aircraft Association and as
such,have had the opportunity over the last 25 years to meet
many interesting and historically important individuals. In 1982 I had the pleasure of meeting Pappy Boyington and with my buddy,was an audience of 2 for about 25 minutes to some of his "war stories". My friend knew many of the man's exploits
during the war and had a great time bending the old gentleman's ears. One thing brought to note was that Pappy didn't care much for some of the ways he or his outfit was portrayed on TV

[Glenn]

BTW, did you know that the real Pappy appeared on the TV show?
TF

I had heard that he was a technical advisor for the series, but I don't recall hearing he had appeared in it. I just checked IMDb and it lists him as playing a general in one episode, as well as his role as technical advisor. It also lists him as a writer for the series, but that is only because the series was loosely based on his book, he didn't actually write any of the episodes.
http://imdb.com/name/nm1014490/

Here is the IMDb listing for the series:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0073961/

[Glenn]

One thing brought to note was that Pappy didn't care much for some of the ways he or his outfit was portrayed on TV

Hardly anything seems straightforward with Boyington's history, and the controversies surrounding him are numerous. The second page of the biographical link I provided above gives a different version of Boyington's attitude toward the show's portrayal:

Of course, Pappy's greatest fame came in the mid Seventies, when the television show "Baa Baa Black Sheep" appeared. Based very loosely on Boyington's memoirs, the show had a three-year run, and achieved a consistent popularity in re-runs. Pappy was a consultant to the show, and got on well with its star, Robert Conrad. But the show's description of the Black Sheep pilots as a bunch of misfits and drunks, which Pappy happily went along with, destroyed Pappy's friendship with many of his squadron veterans, especially Frank Walton. The show made Pappy a real celebrity, and along with his fourth (!) wife Jo, he made a good career out of being an entertainer - appearing at air shows, on TV programs, etc.

( http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_boyington2.html )
The bold/italic emphasis is mine. Given his long history of personal/financial problems up until that point, Boyington was likely happy with the success the show was bringing him, and that may have caused him to ignore his reservations about the portrayal. Whatever his reasons and in spite of any concerns, his decision to support the show's portrayal by being involved with the show, like so many of his decisions throughout his life, alienated people close to him.