Descendents of Shushiwa

[mikemurphy]

I'm with Rick here. I've seen Bill's superempei as well as numerous other Chinese forms and I think you can see comparisons in whatever you wish to see. Darin Yee sensei shows different Chinese forms all the time in which he shows me the "Uechi" in them. Personally, from the history I have seen, if there is a superempei in our style, it hasn't been found yet.

Also, Campbell sensei has much to say about that picture which many of us have on our dojo walls that is supposed to represent Shushiwa. Very interesting.

mike

[Glenn]

As Bill has pointed out, Lailey's performance of the Suparenpi he brought back showed his Goju influence and Bill's performance of the kata shows his Uechi influence. The kata will influence the performer and the performer's background and training will influence his/her performance of the kata, and it is difficult separating out these influences when you watch. In other words, a kata could look Goju or Uechi more due to the performer than any inherent nature of the kata.

Ultimately this can be said about any kata at any point in its history though.

[Bill Glasheen]

At the advice of counsel (my "mentor" that is... ) I kept quiet for a bit. Sometimes when stuff starts happening, it's best to step back and sleep on things a bit.

I've had a number of nights to sleep, as well as a business trip to New England and back.

I'm an academic and a scientist. I'm not going to worry about protocol or feelings when the facts are in question. The theme in fact of my roundtable is that either of the knights of the roundtable, or the roundtable-style education I received at Phillips Exeter. It also harks back to the unique way Dave Finkelstein used to open and close his classes - in a circle rather than with everyone facing the long-belted master and bowing to the Grand Poobah. So if you hadn't noticed, everyone gets equal respect - no more and no less. By the same token, everyone is equally responsible both for decorum and for keeping their facts in order.

Dear Martial Art Enthusiast's:

It is very rare I comment on anything regarding Uechi Ryu, on line. I wish to state, for the record, it is totally false that Simon Lahey studied from the Nephew of the person, claimed to be Jou Tse He ( Shishewa ) Further, based on my direct at hand knowledge, the so called lost Kata introduced by Mr. Lahey is a fabrication of his own making and the sooner this is realized, the better.

Any Kata, whether self created of late or from days gone by has merit if it
serves the purpose of teaching the Art. Let us not add folk lure and untruths as a side-path along the road we all travel for better self.

My apologies to all if my words are offensive. I can not stay idle and read yet another word about untruths. Speak up Mr. Lahey!!

Respectfully
Bob Campbell
Hong Kong

Let's start with the following obvious point that needs to be called. I know of no gentleman by the name of "Mr. Lahey." Mr. Campbell repeatedly refers to a gentleman by the name of Mr. Lahey. Lahey most definitely is a valid name; it exists in my phone book. However nobody other than Mr. Campbell has spoken of anyone by this name in this thread. So this begs the following questions.

1) Is Mr. Campbell confused, or perhaps not a very good typer? It happens; been there, done that. SpellCheck isn't going to be much good here.

2) If Mr. Campbell is not confused and intentionally spelled this name in this manner, then what's up? Is this an individual nobody has yet referred to in this discussion or is there a reason why Lahey does not look like Lailey when push comes to shove?

Just wondering... Sometimes minor points need to be addressed before proceeding. I never assume anything.

Second... What is this "direct at hand knowledge" that you refer to? No fair, buddy. You can't drop a line like that in a good discussion without giving us your sources. Inquiring minds want to know!

By the way, Bob, TJ says hi! You're always welcome to come back and play whenever opportunity arises.

Personally, from the history I have seen, if there is a superempei in our style, it hasn't been found yet.

You too, Murphy Sensei. You're the school teacher; you have no excuse! Share your "history" with us.

Gentlemen if we want to discuss history and challenge the conventional wisdom, well do it right or go home! Nobody here is afraid of a little paradigm shift. But there will be no shifting if there are no facts or data to consider.

Darin Yee sensei shows different Chinese forms all the time in which he shows me the "Uechi" in them.

First... Darin's a good man, and we often think alike. Second... I can show you Uechi in both aikido and Wing Chun. But in doing so, I would never pretend to think that they came from a common origin that is close by in history.

I don't recall you being in any of my Fuzhou Suparinpei classes, Mike. If you had, I would have shown you the many similarities between this form Simon taught me and "the big three" of Uechi. I would also have shown you a couple of moves that are only in the "bridge" kata of Uechi Ryu, and challenge you to think about where those "new" Uechi moves came from. It doesn't prove anything, but it does make the mind race a bit.

I would also be happy to teach you Tsuzkenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa. And I'd be happy to show you "Seisan" ideas throughout those two forms. (It's one reason I teach them in my class.) And we all know that these both are very old, classic kobudo forms.

But in my opinion, there is a big, big difference between the "Seisan-ness" of the Fuzhou Suparinpei I teach, and the "Seisan-ness" of the kobudo forms. There are also fascinating Sanseiryu elements in this form, although the similarities are more fleeting.

To me, the real value of this form for a Uechika is less in what you are doing, and more in the way it demands you do it. And when you get that... And then when you go back to Sanchin through Sanseiryu... Suddenly it will dawn on you how this form can fit quite nicely into the "circular learning pattern" often referred to in comments about the Uechi system.

if there is a superempei in our style, it hasn't been found yet.

Had you taken one of my Fuzhou Suparinpei classes, Mike, you would have known that I agree and therefore your statement was not necessary.

As I repeatedly discuss when teaching this form, Simon tells me that there is a core form that most people more or less follow. However individuals in the class (as Simon related) often did their own versions, and the master really never objected very much. This is very much like the PRC crane master that George brought to Thompson Island circa 1985. That man did his crane form different every time he did it, and I saw him demo it perhaps a half dozen times through the camp. He taught us a skeleton, but he never did his form this way.

And this then leads to an interesting point about why we may never find Uechi Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu in Fuzhou. The way the Okinawans and we Americans now treat this style is a lot like an old episode of Star Trek (A Piece of the Action - episode #46).



In the episode, this smart civilization found a 1920s-era movie of Chicago civilization during U.S. prohibition. Suddenly everyone in the copycat civilization was talking the way of gangsters, and using the props of the era. It was as if they had found the perfect civilization, so it was necessary to freeze it in time. Meanwhile, we folks on earth evolved on.

IF and ONLY IF the form I teach somehow can be connected all the way back to the same Suparinpei that Kanbun allegedly saw in China some time between 1897 and 1910, well the likelihood that I am doing it exactly like the way Kanbun saw it is the same likelihood that George is wearing pinstripe suits and riding around with a tommy gun.

In my opinion, the real secret of advanced Chinese martial arts is that "it" isn't a fixed entity. Doing an advanced form twice the exact same way is about as stupid as playing a jazz piece twice the exact same way. It totally misses the point.

As have many...

Chinese martial arts are no more a religion than is modern mixed martial arts.

I leave the experts with the following Spock quote from A Piece of the Action.

Captain, you are an excellent Starship commander. But as a taxi driver, you leave much to be desired.

the Goju sanchin, at least to me, seems to be a close-fisted version of the Uechi form

Various Goju sources cite Higashionna as the individual who brought Goju's Sanchin from China. The Sanchin he did was open-handed and without dynamic tension. Miyagi Chojun - his student - is credited with closing the hands into fists and adding the dynamic tension. This is neither right nor wrong; it is what it is.

I do both Goju and Uechi Sanchin forms. Each has its value. I use the "method" of dynamic tension movement and dragon breathing to warm my body up on a regular basis. I've taken the idea of Goju Sanchin and run with it. It's done much to keep my shoulders - particularly the left one that I hurt decades ago - in good working order. It's a nice warm-up, and it's the best way IMO to flush blood through the tendons/ligaments, and synovial fluid through the joints. And that would be a good thing, BTW.

I disagree that the Uechi and goju Seisan kata are all that different after the turn.

Dana if you see more in a kata than I do, then Raffi's going to start checking if you're taking your meds. But seriously... We should chat. I'd love to see what you see.

It's been a while since I've done Goju Seisan. I guess the first 1/3 was so similar that I kind of lost the idea of looking for more similarities after it morphed so quickly into something different.

One final point... If folks want to question the integrity of Mr. Lailey, that's fine. We all should be rigorous in our methods when getting the facts straight in history. But I thought it worth mentioning that George told me he saw a movie Simon showed him of a Chinese man doing the form Simon was doing. If that is true, then some critics of "Mr. Lahey" have some explaining to do.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

you would have known that I agree and therefore your statement was not necessary.

Interesting....

You may have answered this before, Bill. But do you think that the "Lailey" superempi is only tangentally related to Uechi-Ryu? Is it related just about the same why that Tsuzkenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa are related to Uechi, and the same way that Aiki is "related"?

Spot on with most of the rest, BTW.

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Gene

I don't yet have enough information to arrive at a conclusion. But my gut tells me that this form came from the same neighborhood - literally speaking - as that which produced "the big three" of Uechi Ryu. That doesn't necessarily mean this is a descendant of the form Kanbun allegedly saw; I have no proof yet. But I feel pretty strongly that we're working with many of the same choreographers in history.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Bill , your riding the fence fairly hard on this one .

Feeling it is the kata and saying it is the kata , it`s a fine line .

I think the biggest problem is just the presentation . While it often makes for good tv , could this be , come learn possible lost the 4`th kata of Uechi from such high ranks ... well it`s hardly the scientific method .

there are shotokan katas that resemble Uechi in content ... Now they arent performed that way , but they could be ....

and you could perhaps argue there origins back to Fuzhou ...

you know , I know , most researchers know , it`s intangible and unprovable and were all relying on faith a lot of the time .

Your rightly pursuing something on a hunch .

nothing wrong with any of that , the only moral obligation anyone has when in such high standing in the Uechi community , Is to be very explicit that it is just such a hunch and feeling and personal project .

Something correctly you regularly do .

to tie it to Uechi is premature at best and historically disastourous at worst .

I think the best way to pursue knowledge of this kata is to make it public domain . Get a clip out there of somone/anyone doing it .

then let the entire martial arts community take a look and reference there sources .

If there is such a clip that can be distributed and shared freely already please let me know

as for similariteis in seisan , I agree theres a lot of comminalitys throughout the Goju and Uechi versions , even Hangetsu , though I dont care for it much ...

this is in the grand scheme not a huge thing , because anyone truly delving will see the commnets that it`s a may be so .

however it`s a pattern a little , I see the same leap of logic from may be so to fact with the entire Shushiwa debate .

either there are more facts no ones willing to share , or it`s been conveneintly accepted .

I wish there was a better exchange of information .

[Rick Wilson]

I disagree Bill.

Simply because you see some relationships between this form and Uechi hardly prove it to be the lost Kata of Uechi.

Many Southern Systems can have similarities shown.

There is an Islamic Xing Yi form that has an entire sequence of Seisan in it (a Chicken Form) does that make Uechi a lost Xing Yi form/

Hardly has it just meant the folks who created them may have travelled in the same circles.

I ask you to apply a critical test to the source of this form.

If it is the base of Uechi and Uechi Kanbun spent all those years doing Sanchin and then Seisan and then Sanseirui and now this “style” still exists then logically if the fourth form in the series survived then Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseirui should have survived as well.

I have asked previously if these folk had Sanchin, Seisan or Sanseirui and so far no sign of them.

So to me that system where that form is said to have come from CANNOT logically be Uechi’s base system.

I will repeat that despite any similarities you find in the Kata between it and Uechi – finding the only form that is not in Uechi is NOT proof that system is Uechi. In fact I would say it proves the opposite.

Now, this does not say we cannot learn something new about our Uechi by learning a similar form so training in the form may well benefit your Uechi.

[Rick Wilson]

Bill PM for you.

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

Thanks for the PM.

The form done in the video clip you sent a link to (which comes before the next video clip showing pictures of "the other Shushiwa") doesn't look at all like either Uechi Ryu or the Fuzhou Suparinpei (yi bai lin ba bu) that I learned from Simon. Nice form though. Very interesting, and quite frankly quite "primitive" in the way it looks.

I'm not sure where you were going with that. But thanks anyway for the form. It's a keeper.

This guy looks a lot like the PRC "tiger guy" that George brought over to Thompson Island circa 1985 along with the "crane guy." Neither of their forms looked like Uechi Ryu, but they were fun to learn nonetheless.

- Bill

[Stryke]

So is anyone going to do something about getting this form out there ?

someone do a clip it`ll take a few minutes of your life , and you might contribute to understanding it .

people wont be able to judge you like a sanchin clip Bill , how about it ?

[Bill Glasheen]

Marcus

This film clip is a bit of a non sequitur on the subject of the Fuzhou Suparinpei I do. Rick sent me a link. Here it is.

http://s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3W08 ... S194VC7YUK

He sent me a subsequent link which showed an altar with a picture of "Shushiwa" (the photo lots of folks have hung up in their dojos), and that apparently was from the same place/time.

It is what it is, and not a form I recognize. All I can tell you is that it jogs my memory a bit. I remember one of Nestor Folta's students going to China in the Fuzhou region, and he was all excited about some films he took. He alerted me to a film of "Suparinpei" that was done for him, and he was thinking it was the same form I did. It was not; it looked nothing like it. And this form Rick sent me a clip of looks a bit like that form if my memory serves me well.

I posted above about the use of kata names in China. As I understand it, it's fashionable to name your pet forms after numbers that make reference to Buddhism. This would include many of the "number" forms of both the Uechi and the Goju system, hence their sharing the name "Sanseiryu" for forms but having two such forms that look nothing like each other. As I stated above, it's like deciding that your team colors will be red.

I haven't bought into the guy in the "Shushiwa" picture being Shushiwa. I don't completely discount it because I have no proof against it. But here my gut tells me "no cigar."

Interesting form though...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick and Marcus

I spent a long time thinking about the post I would make before I did the one above with the Star Trek reference. Please re-read it. I was very careful with my wording, and said exactly what I meant to say.

I am a scientist. Ninety-nine days out of a hundred, that involves the scientific method. Every once in a while though we talk with the marketing folks and/or get up on stage or with a grant proposal to advocate a position. This advocacy is what brings the bucks in, both in industry and in academia.

In the case of the whole Fuzhou Suparinpei thing, George is the marketing guy. I didn't come up with the whole "lost kata" line; that's his doing. George knows more about marketing and getting people together than the three of us combined, so I defer to him here. It's a bit on the schmaltzy side, but on the other hand it gets people talking and asking questions. And then when people argue, it hopefully gets them passionate enough to get off their butts and do a little bit of honest-to-god research.

This form I do is a "primary source" of a sort. We have damn little else to date. Simon's a bit difficult to get a hold of these days. I believe his new wife keeps him under wraps. But if he cares about what he has done and picks up on the online static, I'm sure he'll eventually provide what he can. Then it's up to the rest of us to read and think what we think.

"Unnamed sources" doesn't cut it in my book - period. We all can do better. And as far as I can tell, we've got a lot of primary source data collecting to do before we can shed any more light on the history we have to date. And in my book, that includes both the "extra" form I pactice/teach as well as The Big Three we do in Uechi Ryu.

- Bill

[Stryke]

The clip i`m hoping for is your kata Bill

I`m aware of the clip Rick sent , thanks .

Is the only way to get it by buying it ?

I do recall seeing it somewhere , but didnt copy it for ethical reasons

Good marketing by George , But if it truly is so Uechi it should be distributed so more research can be done .

I dont think it`s a totally unreasonable request .

I think your stance is fairly sound On this Bill , you think it could be but no evidence other than a hunch .

still no info on the shushiwa debate , I was sure someone would have some evidence other than the name .

difficult to get information when due process is ignored huh , maybe I`m wrong .

[benzocaine]

That form looked very Uechi to me. Add a little karate "snap" to it and tighten it up , and it looks a whole lot like the stuff we do. Hell, I'd be happy to learn that one posted here

Just my 2 pennies.. and I know it's not the one Bill does.

Bill PM for you

[JimHawkins]

Marcus Bill's Suparinpei kata, if that was the one you meant, is on the download media site.

A couple of people mentioned that they thought WCK's second form looks a bit like this Suparinpei form and it does have some common elements.

I agree with Bill that they are "related" in the sense that the DNA of the later or latter day "super" styles that emerged around the same time all have similar DNA, like Baak Mei, Southern Mantis, Mu Mei, WCK, Southern Crane, etc. They seem to have come from the same general area Yung Chun Hall, the burned temple and ended up around Fukien, close to where the Okinowans came to visit. They are all simplified systems--they are all hard and soft--they were all or mainly all intended for use in getting rid of the Manchu. Each seem to have common base elements but diverge ever so slightly in different directions.. Some of the "last rev" systems were the very last and some would think best systems to come out of the temple. A "secret" hard/soft style that was new at the time would seem to fit in with what some of the Okinowans were talking about.

Why must have Shushiwa past on a single copy of a single system? Perhaps he had some experience in a few different systems and passed on what he liked.. And/Or perhaps Uechi Kanbun did the same.. I would not expect to find anything near an exact copy of the big three as they are anywhere in China--on the other hand one can easily find parts here and there, which makes perfect sense.