Descendents of Shushiwa

[Willy]

Why are you discussing Uechi kata etc, do you train it? Is your purpose just to flame Uechika and their system.

Do you have a school were you teach so we could view your perfect unchanged system of CMA?

What is the address of your school?

Are you actively training and teaching anywhere? Or are you as it has been sugested a keyboard commando, not active in the arts who's only purpose on these boards is to flame?

Care to respond Jim?

[Willy]

Sorry, Willy, but had to edit this one. Humor at someone else's expense doesn't fit with forum protocol.

- The Moderator

[John Giacoletti]

Speaking of Uechi and variations of kata ...

is the short form of Seisan still practiced? When was this variation started and by whom?

The short form eliminates the three opening Sanchin strikes. It begins by opening with the double ridge hand strikes.

I don't see it in our dojo anymore.

[JimHawkins]

I found this from George most interesting and revealing:

The problem they had was in converting this basic material into anything that had any relevancy in the way they fought.

Ironically, many of these dojo produced really tough fighters, who used none of their Uechi core material in their fighting.... well, maybe a little of those intangible components of Uechi-ryu that has more to do with "mindset" than physical movements.

The Uechi DNA was there, but the teachers hadn't a clue what to do with it

I agree this is exactly what I saw--and objected to..

Naturally, there will always be more poor schools than good, more good than great but these kinds of issues are generally not the issues you will find in WCK.

[JimHawkins]

Why are you discussing Uechi kata etc, do you train it? Is your purpose just to flame Uechika and their system.

Do you have a school were you teach so we could view your perfect unchanged system of CMA?

What is the address of your school?

Are you actively training and teaching anywhere? Or are you as it has been sugested a keyboard commando, not active in the arts who's only purpose on these boards is to flame?

Care to respond Jim?

Hi "Willy"..

Are we discussing Uechi kata here?

Should I forward my training schedule to you in order for you to validate my opinions?

Ad Hominem mean anything to you?

Oh but if you could address the points that both I and Ray have made, but that would be asking too much..

The facts stand on their own. If you care to debate them then go right ahead..

Beyond that I could give a ratz ass less what you want or think or say "Willy"...

You are a non sequitor... and I will not respond to any more of your pathetic baiting...

Bye bye now!

[Willy]

but these kinds of issues are generally not the issues you will find in WCK.

Especially in those virtual dojo's in cyberspace. How many keyboard commando's you got now Jim?

[Willy]

I guess that means visiting your imaginary school is out of the question then, seeing we are not talking

I'll leave you to mastrubate in private.

[Rick Wilson]

All I am saying Jim is that there is no harmonious system where everyone does the something in any martial art.

You mentioned Chen Taiji and I have friends who trained in Chen Taiji they learned two versions of the same form that are very different yet the seniors they come from studied under the same teacher.

Is there a thread of WC DNA throughout all of WC – absolutely.

Is there a thread of Chen Taiji throughout all of Chen Taiji – absolutely.

Is there a thread of Uechi DNA throughout all of Uechi – absolutely.

Are there disputes in WC – absolutely.

Are there disputes in Chen Taiji – absolutely.

Are there disputes in Uechi – absolutely.

What is my point?

George on Uechi Ryu:

“Uechi DNA is in every Uechi dojo. Even the most brain-dead Uechi teacher possesses the ingredients of superb Uechi-ryu. Where they lack talent or ability is in the transmission of information relating to this DNA that is either meaningful or useful.

And Wing Chung, like Uechi-ryu, suffers from the same malady!”


My read on your posts is that they hold interesting information but they are always delivered with that tone that WC is superior because all WC does the same thing and all WC get along and Uechi doesn’t.

Perhaps I am wrong in my read but what I wanted to point out was that, just as George said, “Wing Chung, like Uechi-ryu, suffers from the same malady!”

That was my point -- the same one George made.

Since George pointed it out as well, I do not think I am alone in how I am reading your posts.

But I could be wrong.

[Rick Wilson]

For instance:

"Naturally, there will always be more poor schools than good, more good than great but these kinds of issues are generally not the issues you will find in WCK."

I cannot comment on WC schools, but within the threads I posted are comments about WC schools that ****** and suffer the same issues.

So there are WC schools that ****** and there are Uechi schools that ******.

This is the very type of comment declaring WC superiority over Uechi I am referring to and I suspect generated George’s comment as well.

[Stryke]

it`s another contrived WC vs Uechi thread .

weve all agreed theres core material , and weve all agreed theres variation and exploration .

Jims noted it in wing chun .

weve all commented on it in Uechi .

It`s just twisting and turning , variation means discarding if it`s uechi , it means exploration of the set principles if its wing chun ...

you see Uechi has no base , you point to the kata , but yet no because it`s kata , but wing chun has all it`s principles in main forms , but thats valid because ... wait for it ... it`s wing chun !!!!

you see Wing chun is complete because it`s established on flexible principles .

But when your flexible with the Uechi principles youve learnt ... heck thats not uechi its not Wing Chun !!!

I cant see the argument except for the this is what I see is wrong crap

I see lots wrong with everything doesnt mean it`s crap .

I enjoy uechi , case closed IMHO .

it`s getting fairly tired , anyone care to talk substance over semantics ?

now here comes another tirade of opinion .

thats not uechi because it`s not wing chun !!

looking forward to the ridiculous zingers ....

different systems , different methods , different folks , and different sucesses .

ce la vie

[JimHawkins]

Man you guys love to fight...

And Marcus don't gime me the BS please.. I did not resurect this end of the discussion that was from the 2 of 5...

It is you forcing me to respond now and I do so with great restraint...

---------------------

In the past I would have went on a full point by point post but I am no longer so invested--IO just don't care...

I will just clarify..

All I am saying Jim is that there is no harmonious system where everyone does the something in any martial art.

I assume you meant "the same thing".

The exact same thing? In every school? In every line? At every moment? Good greif of course not...

But the same forms..

The same theories...

The same techniques...

The same Chi Sao...

Absolutely to a degree of about 90%..

That's a no brainer to me--it's the same style for Pete's sake...

Now there are more differences in how the information is passed or trained but again it's the same system.. Hell even in totally different lines the forms in Ip's WCK are often very close to theirs..

But, I am not sure what this has to do with anything..

George on Uechi Ryu:

“Uechi DNA is in every Uechi dojo. Even the most brain-dead Uechi teacher possesses the ingredients of superb Uechi-ryu. Where they lack talent or ability is in the transmission of information relating to this DNA that is either meaningful or useful.

And Wing Chung, like Uechi-ryu, suffers from the same malady!”

And I agree and also disagree.

Any style or system, even if we could say that style A is the very best, once you go public and have a million people teaching and training all over the world and then add in the money thing well of course you are going to have tons and tons of CRAP out there in addition to what is good or correct..

However--and you force this--what is NOT the case in WCK and many other arts is what George explains here:

The problem they had was in converting this basic material into anything that had any relevancy in the way they fought.

Ironically, many of these dojo produced really tough fighters, who used none of their Uechi core material in their fighting.... well, maybe a little of those intangible components of Uechi-ryu that has more to do with "mindset" than physical movements.

The Uechi DNA was there, but the teachers hadn't a clue what to do with it

This represents a clear disconnect..

This from Jorvik:

Well I think that is quite correct I sure as hell don't understand that type of philosophy
But look at the posts we are seeing here. NOBODY knows WHAT Uechi is....it's a cloud, an enigma you've got folks doing half a$$ed Aikido passed as Uechi, you've got folks telling us that it is a "close Quater System" then I see a video of an expert sparring in long distance range ( in fact if you had told me it was shotokan I would have believed it )
then you have him breaking boards, again with long distance techniques, huge big wind up to it.and of course you cannot do that ..so you get deformed and spastic fingers, which will serve you well in old age .....

Jorvik bring up some touchy issues that no one wants to address..

More here:

I don't want fancy katas, and I don't want to spend years trying to find stuff.....I mean look at other commodities ...........you would not buy a car that just happened to get you from A to B would you?...well!! I certainly would not. IT would be bought for that express purpose of getting me from A to B....................i would not buy a gun that just happened to fire occaisionally,
so I guess I really don't understand that comment

Okay so what.. Well, my so what is that, hey there are other more practical options and Ray and I are on the same page here..

Some of his observations run very deep.. Again these kinds of issues indicate a clear disconnect that is visible and clear to us.

Sorry if folks don't like that I am really very sorry, but it is what I feel and what is in my heart..

My read on your posts is that they hold interesting information but they are always delivered with that tone that WC is superior because all WC does the same thing and all WC get along and Uechi doesn’t.

Nope it's about a disconnect.

I post what I post at times to share my experience and my view.. If some don't like or agree with my view then I am very sorry, but you can either debate it or scroll down..

Perhaps I am wrong in my read but what I wanted to point out was that, just as George said, “Wing Chung, like Uechi-ryu, suffers from the same malady!”

I agree that ALL arts suffer from some kind of malady but not the same kind.

Again just for clarification..

So many things said over the years from the top people here on this.. But this one line sums it up..

Ironically, many of these dojo produced really tough fighters, who used none of their Uechi core material in their fighting....

A disconnect..

I don't want to go on any more with this.. I am only saying that it is this disconnect that I refer to and object to. If you understand what I mean great, if you agree great if not fine. I am only telling you what I have objected to since my start in the arts--the disconnect--the myth--the sales pitch--which alone as words do not begin to truly address the issue but I don't care to go any further at this time.

I have my feeling and opinions and a strong belief in what is wrong and what is right and that is what I stand up for when I post or share...

If anyone wants me to get more specfic then PM me and I will discuss more openly what and why I feel the way I do about these issues.

[Stryke]

I don't want to go on any more with this.. I am only saying that it is this disconnect that I refer to and object to. If you understand what I mean great, if you agree great if not fine. I am only telling you what I have objected to since my start in the arts--the disconnect--the myth--the sales pitch--which alone as words do not begin to truly address the issue but I don't care to go any further at this time.

Actually Jim that was clear and I got it , I agree one should reference what they train when they fight .

Everything I train In Uechi I try and use , and find myself doing so , I tend to use them over broader than specific ways but still use them . In fact i`m starting to suprise myself gettng automatic responses I didnt have six months ago .

Ive seen no disconnect in IUPA Uechi , and thats the only Uechi i`ve done , and it`s based solely on the kata , so I`m sure you can see where I`d think your thinking flawed .

I cant speak for anyone elses stuff , and quite frankly dont think you can either , unless youve experienced it .

as for the long range stuff , sports fighting , a malady of most karate if thats all you do , it all looks like shotokan because thats what wins points tournaments .

you need to train according to the rules

not to say a lot of the skillset dont cross reference each other .

Heck I do shoto-ryu still however I dont do sport fighting , now theres something different , applications

I think the disconnet is simply not exploring karate as a jutsu , thats a very valid topic .

however I still beleive the kata system can stand on it`s own merits , and compete with any style .

[Rick Wilson]

I guess I have to be blunt.

Jim I don't care about WC.

I don't care if you or the other non Uechi folk care if youthink it is based better than Uechi.

I do not care if you think WC is so much better than Uechi.

Go to a WC board and preach there.

Whay are you WC guys here dissing Uechi why are you not preaching to the choir on a WC board.

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HOW GODLIKE PERFECT YOU THINK WC IS.

Imperfect Uehi is better (for me) than your WC.

Your WC is the greatest pitch bores the heck out of me as we have all heard it before.

Again and again in fact.

Why are you preaching the perfection of WC on a Uechi board?

Why are you not spending time perfecting your WC among WC folk?

Hmmm.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

There are a few basic fallacies in your discussions.

1) Ray (a.k.a. jorvik) is NOT a Uechi Ryu practitioner. (And if he is, let's hear his credentials.) He's someone who views it from the outside looking in. Quoting him as a source for Uechi Ryu is like me quoting a taequondo practitioner on the merits, strengths, and weaknesses of Wing Chun.

So don't even go there. Ray is in a perpetual battle with himself and how he wants to view a style he doesn't understand, can't seem to grasp when we describe our methods, and can't seem to find when looking for a source. I think it's a consensus opinion by now that he either doesn't "get" it, or refuses to when given the opportunity.

BTW, my apologies if my criticisms seem excessively harsh or perhaps personal. However I think not; I believe they are on the mark.

2) You seem constantly to emphasize that Wing Chun practitioners have no problem applying the principles of their system. Well in my years fighting in open tournaments, I've encountered many Wing Chun schools. I was always interested, because I always saw the Uechi in Wing Chun (or the other way around, from your point of view... ). But I never saw a Wing Chun practitioner or school fare well in an open tournament, nor did I see them doing anything that was recognizable as Wing Chun once the referee said Hajime! (There were always the T-shirts and the boss slippers... )

And it doesn't count fighting your own kind. That's like kissing your sister in my book. Before the UFC, most of the striking martial arts world had arrogance about what they practiced. The Gracies fixed that; they learned about and worked with their competition while covering their own base. Now most styles keep a broad view, and there are no longer any "dominant" styles in the UFC ring.

So what I'm saying, Jim, is that I don't share the perspectives that are the basis of your criticisms of the Uechi world. Trust me... I was in search of other styles that had their act together through the years. Had I come across decent Wing Chun schools which could make their principles relevant in what they did, I would have run with them. I did not.

In my opinion, these issues are largely a function of the PEOPLE running the schools, and not styles. In all my travels through the martial world, I learned the most from good people, and not necessarily good styles per se.

- Bill

[Willy]

This from Jorvik:


I don't want fancy katas, and I don't want to spend years trying to find stuff.....I mean look at other commodities ...........you would not buy a car that just happened to get you from A to B would you?...well!! I certainly would not. IT would be bought for that express purpose of getting me from A to B....................i would not buy a gun that just happened to fire occaisionally,
so I guess I really don't understand that comment

Okay so what.. Well, my so what is that, hey there are other more practical options and Ray and I are on the same page here

Neither of you train Uechi, You have both said you see no value in training kata. You claim conditioning is wrong.

Jim your holding up Jorvick as an expert opinion in Uechi. He has said he plans to train Uechi some time soon. But I'm not sure how valid his training will be without kata and conditioning.

Your upset because some folks who have decades in the system might be tinkering with the kata they have trained for decades and yet it's okay for your Uechi master buddy in the UK to throw out all kata. What a comedy!

Endless pages of Wc this Wc that.

So why not share your lineage. Your acting like the second comming of yip man. How long did you train WC before you stopped training. The keyboard is rather non contact isn't it.

Bill makes some interesting points about the quality of WC fighters and lack of them in certain circles. His experience echo's mine.

There have been many nationally ranked and world ranked full contact professional Uechi fighters. Have there been many out of the Yip man line? How about out of your school?

I once saw some WC masters in Germany fight on the internet I wasn't impressed.Didn't look like chi sao helped them at all. If the masters can't do it what makes you think you can? Getting any results in the ring or all your battles keyboard related?