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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:26 pm 
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Whenever I show kata to people (who aren't Uechi) and they ask about my uechi horse stance I'm always at a loss for words or even a name for the stance.

Last night I was watching video of a group training and the Okinawan senior used the term "Shikodachi." Now I've probably heard that before but it hasn't registered into my memory until now. It seems like most US uechi-ka use the term kiba dachi...or...maybe it is most Uechi-ka that I've met and people actually use both equally?

The Uechi horse stance that I saw most often in Okinawa is similar to the "shikodachi" and "kibadachi" of other systems except that the front foot isn't 100% straight forward North - it is turned in a little NW à la sanchin. There is a more forward twist at the waist so as much of the upper body as possible faces N, and the rear knee is at 90 degrees or less (so the rear foot toes are at least in line with the rear foot heet and maybe even pointing closer to 45 degrees NW than 90 degrees W.

But "Uechi Shikodachi" just might be useful. It will give karate-ka a frame of reference and then also let them know that it is a variation of a known convention.

more standard shikodachi:
Quote:
http://www.shotokai.com/tecnicas/shikodac.html
Image
De función similar al kibadachi, los pies se encuentran abiertos en 180 grados, lo cual permite , con pérdida de tensión en algunas masas musculares una mayor flexión con un centro de gravedad más bajo.


Translation:
Of function similar to kibadachi, the feet are open in 180 degrees, which allows, with loss of tension in some muscular masses a greater flexion with a lower center of gravity.

Or maybe just continue to call it Uechi Kiba dachi....

silly words...:roll:

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Last edited by Dana Sheets on Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:40 pm 
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I only use that stance when doing the "yankee kata". And that's a secret Northeast kata.

What Uechi uses that? I'm at a loss.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:22 am 
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What do you call the stance you use for the elbow strike in kanshiwa kata?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:11 am 
Dana me and Bill have discussed it and it`s come up a few times , i think your right on the money

I think the Uechi version much closer to what I call shiko dachi , I beleive goju utilises it a lot , Bill would know on this one .

My feeling is shikodachi is more Okinawan , and the rigid horse stance(kiba dachi) to be more of a japanese construct .

I could be wrong , I personally think shikodachi more natural and easier on the joints , I refuse to do the more extreme version as I beleive it`s anatomically flawed . I feel the same way with extreme Sanchin and Hangetsu dachi stances you find in some shotokan lineages .

Knees arent meant for some things ...

As a side note Ive heard shoko dachi in reference to the feet on the 90 and on a more like 45 degree , I find the 90 degree stance almost useless but the 45 optimum and my preference .


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:36 am 
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In his book Alan Dollar calls the stance "sue goshi dachi." pg 398.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:43 am 
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Hi Dana,

I don't call that one anything.
With all the variations of it I can't see how you can.
Look at how Shinjo does it on the cover of Alan Dollars book or the much higher stance many others use.
A kiba dachi to me is a facing forward stance with both feet out slightly at an angle for practicing basic high, middle and low blocks.

However in Alan Dollars book he uses the name Sue Goshi dachi or low stance with one foot forward. See page 411.

I've never called it anything. But maybe if I did my students would differentiate it and do it better.
I've often thought of patenting a Uechi knee bender for the beginners with a remote control. :lol:
F.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:43 pm 
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Yah - this is more when I'm trying to explain it to non-uechi folks than in the dojo. In the dojo I can just move them around until they find their strong spot. Other people wanna know where it fits into the world of stances.

How 'bout this page:
http://judoforum.com/blog/joseverson/in ... m=3&y=2006

A gazillion terms in japanese, lots of stuff about judo, endless characters in Japanese...and groovy fun drawings like:
Image

and this one:

Image

I like that little circle in the sanchin dachi...never seen that before.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Dana,
In the past 6-7 years of Judo my instructor has spent about 5 minutes on stances. :lol:

I have 2 stances.
Get the heck outta da way dachi.
Get in and hit em dachi. :twisted:

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:51 pm 
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The circle in the footwark chart may indicate the rotation of the position of one foot to the other 8)

I wonder if there are similar charts for hip and pelvic positions? And notations: tuck in butt; rotate right hip forward and up 45 deg. to left followed by pelvic hajike. :lol:

Some cross training in ballroom dancing might be helpful :)

My son and I have participated in Scottish Country Dancing for several years. It really helps with the physical geography. But it's very puritanical Presbyterian when it comes to useful language in describing things physical below the waist. :)

Perhaps the Japanese have similar social constraints?

Interestingly enough, after Canada and the U.S. the Japanese rate as the third largest country in number of Scottish dancing participants, ahead, even, of Great Britain (England and Scotland).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:03 am 
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Wow John,
You have some cool outside interests.
You don't hear often about Scottish dancing.
However Irish step is all the rage with the young girls.
My Scottish grandfather used to make us dance, but was always busting out our scones.
F.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:34 am 
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Most people probably don't know that the original Highland Dances that thousands of young women perform nowdays were originally danced by warriors in preparation for battle.

The Reel of the 51st Division (my favorite) was originated by the Scottish Highlanders held prisioners of war in WW II for physical exercise, psychological health and "entertainment." It's a man's dance in which women on occassion may be invited to participate.

I asked one of the groomsmen at my son's wedding ball why he took Scottish Country Dancing. His answer: "That's where the women are."

When Justin visited Okinawa a couple of years ago, he was very grateful for the opportunity to train twice with Seizan in his new dojo. On a separate social visit, Justin and his wife put on a little dancing demonstration for Seizan and Sumako.

Many karate people like dancing; unfortunately, the reciprocal doesn't hold true. Every July the Boston Branch of the RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dance Society) hosts summer dance camp at Pinewoods near Plymouth. The enrollment is capped at 350 and it's always a sell-out. Justin has often done Uechi kata for the talent night and the audience is very appreciative of the kata performances.

The articulation of physical technique and the vigorous patterns of the dances lends well with karate movements. I think one of the meanings of kata is " a dance." Okinawan folk dances are often part of karate festivities. There are two outstanding performances by two women on GEM's 33rd Anniversary video.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:38 pm 
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Yah - my judo teacher never mentioned a stance in four years of training. Only named the throws. But then again...he was korean. so maybe he didn't know the japanese names of the stances. One of the most fascinating elements of our trip to Okinawa was the wide, wide variety of horse stances we saw in Uechi. It would seem that each person simply did the stance that worked best for their body and their style of application. However most everyone agreed that younger people should do deeper stances to help build leg strength.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:31 am 
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I'm new to Uechi Ryu, but I trained for several years in Matsubayashi Ryu (a Shorin Ryu style) in my youth (25 years ago), and I still practice several of my favorite Matsubayshi kata, so I'm especially sensitized at the moment to subtle differences in stance. The question being asked in such learned company makes me wonder if I am missing something subtle, but Mattson Sensei calls this stance a "deep Sanchin" in his tapes and he even discusses the fact that he was not given a name for it. Of course the rear foot must change angle from regular Sanchin. The closest approximation in Matsubayashi Ryu would be jigotai dachi but used with the torso turned at an angle and entered into at an angle as well. That is to say, as a deep Sanchin it is straight ahead, but as Jigotai dachi it is slightly rotated. It's not an exact match, and one does not enter jigotai dachi in Matsubayashi Kata in quite the same direction as one enters deep Sanchin in Kanshiwa--movement into jigotai dachi tends to be in a line with both feet, backing up, or as weight shift from zenkutsu dachi. In fact, deep Sanchin is an interpolation between jigotai and zenkutsu dachi. This is why I actually find the transition in Kanshiwa a little bit of a challenge--my body wants very much to go into either jigotai or zenkutsu dachi, neither of which is correct, while the stance I am shooting for is something in between the two.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:07 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
I like that little circle in the sanchin dachi...never seen that before.
That little circle in my drawing is to remember that feet must be placed on the ground as if on an edge of a circle, where center stands on Jûshin... Nothing else. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:14 pm 
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Hi! Thanks for dropping by and adding that clarification.

You made a wonderful set of drawings. In my brief time training judo, I never ran into the Sanchin stance being identified.

How is sanchin used in the judo you train?

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