things to think about for the month of August-----

[Dave Young]

...Any comments are welcome;

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window?
2. Why is it hard to keep the attention span of a student once they have earned their desired belt?
3. Does it take more then a contract to keep students returning and if so what?
4. Have I blended the traditional skills needed to meet the reality of the life encounters they face today?
5. Have I as a Black Belt STOPPED learning?

Please copy a question and offer your comments...Thanks

Dave

[gmattson]

Students get bored if teachers can't break out of the old format class after class.

As a matter of fact, that is probably the answer for most of the other numbered questions.

[Dave Young]

Being bored has many different meanings; ie....the familar, nothing new, past or done routine, nothing exciting and the list can go on.

And yes I would agree that being bored can answer some of the questions I asked but in a ways some are general, some are the responsiblity of the student and definitely the responsiblity of the teacher...

"Nothing new can be brought in if nothing new has been received."

I think I read that off of a fortune cookie....some where.....

I am hoping Summerfest 2007 will be the answer for these questions as well.....

Thanks for stopping by George...Always nice to see you...

Dave

[Stryke]

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window?

it wasnt what they thought they wanted

2. Why is it hard to keep the attention span of a student once they have earned their desired belt?

they either fulfilled there aspirations or worse realised there aspiration wasnt fulfilled by said rank and process .

3. Does it take more then a contract to keep students returning and if so what?

sometimes folks will stick with something no matter what , the reality is the majority are looking for specific goals to be met , And no matter what service you provide , it may not be what the market wants long term .

4. Have I blended the traditional skills needed to meet the reality of the life encounters they face today?

Yes and no , it is an eternal evolution , the only path is to adapt and improve , I will never have the complete picture or answer .

5. Have I as a Black Belt STOPPED learning?

I`ve stopped being a blackbelt , and Ive never learnt more .

[Dave Young]

[i]At the end of August I will provide my responses to these questions. THANK YOU for taking the time to reply see my comments in bold.

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window? [/quote] It wasn’t what they thought they wanted
-Your so correct… I have found that people at times rather than make decisions based on rational and thought out decisions here in the US make them on impulse or what the fade is and fail to see the personal value in nature of their commitments. This is very evident in the US having the highest divorce rate in the county..

]2. Why is it hard to keep the attention span of a student once they have earned their desired belt?
[/quote] They either fulfilled there aspirations or worse realized there aspiration wasn’t fulfilled by said rank and process .

- Over the year the family unit is not as supportive of each other as in the past. Goal setting without research, dedication without commitment is not reinforced as it should be or has. I can remember 25 years ago when children had more respect to adults or elders, were given more discipline in homes and in schools. The students of now are not the same students of today. The vessels are the same but the molds are different.

3. Does it take more then a contract to keep students returning and if so what? [/quote] sometimes folks will stick with something no matter what , the reality is the majority are looking for specific goals to be met , And no matter what service you provide , it may not be what the market wants long term .

I have found that when you combine short and long term goals in business and are dealing with a variety of personalities, we end up never achieving the long term goal; this is due to the many different motives and hidden agendas. People in general rarely if at all will share with you the main reasons for them wanting to join out of feeling embarrassed or being ashamed. When dealing with the many we over look the few….when this happens we stat losing the battle eternally and gradually.

4. Have I blended the traditional skills needed to meet the reality of the life encounters they face today?
[/quote] Yes and no , it is an eternal evolution , the only path is to adapt and improve , I will never have the complete picture or answer.

You are so correct, this is why the two must be taught separately and then combined so people understand the traditional forms, and then taught what will protect them in their own world. For example, we are not confronted with attackers of the various martial arts returning from the store, or attacks with only a bows or sticks to defend ourselves, the attackers is trained differently to attack us and we must adapt in order to suvive both in business and in the streets.

5. Have I as a Black Belt STOPPED learning?[/quote] I`ve stopped being a black belt , and I’ve never learnt more .[/quote].

Your comment is very commendable and I have found that this is the minority of the martial arts and training world. Your students are lucky to have you. I started out at the age of 7 learning martial arts, my learning was dictated by where I lived and money we had which was none at the time. I was fortunate and blessed to meet professionals who would teach me without sounding like they were chasing the dollar so to speak. Each year we moved I found another teacher, as I grew older I realized that people grow frustrated when they could not learn in 3 years what it took the Master their entire life to learn so they made excuses for their changing their minds rather then change their thinking. Years of this type of thinking took a toll on the teachers and eventually the teachers got tired and lost in the end.

Thank you for taking the time to give me your input. I wish you a great day and look forward to seeing you sometime if our paths should cross…

Dave

[Mary Chant]

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window?

I certainly cannot speak from the perspective of a head of a dojo, but from the perspective of just another karate-ka and a student of other interests, 2-3 years is about the time frame where I hit a wall. For me in karate, it was a place where the first phase of my natural momentum and ability peaked, and then it really became work. For the first couple of years, the gains made are so easy to see and measure, and feed the excitement and drive to work out and work out hard. But after that, the progress comes more slowly, and the improvement more difficult to see. It's easy to feel stuck.

I have to say, however, making it through that wall to the other side is always an incredibly renewing and invigorating experience.

[Mary Chant]

As a rule of thumb, I generally do not submit my own comments in quotes (how annoying of me). I meant to put the question in qoutes, but screwed up. Sorry.

[MikeK]

My answers are inline with those of Marcus. We must talk to the same people. And Mary and GEM make good points also.

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window?

The important question to me is what does the student leave with after a teacher has had them for 2 or 3 years. That's a long time and if you've had someone under your wing and all he has to show for that is some white PJs, a canvas belt and a certificate, then the instructor has failed.

I've talked about my jujutsu sensei before. The short story is he noticed that most of the people walking in his door were looking for self defense and would only stay between 30 - 90 days. What he did was take the JJ moves that had the highest return against the most likley attacks, were easiest to learn and trained them in a live fashion. No matter how short a time that you trained there, you walked away with some street usable skills. But the more you stuck around the more jujutsu you learned.

2. Why is it hard to keep the attention span of a student once they have earned their desired belt?

Easy, they've focused on a strip of canvas and not on learning. The reason for that is also easy, too much emphasis on getting the colored strips of canvas.

3. Does it take more then a contract to keep students returning and if so what?

If what you're teaching is interesting then it shouldn't be a problem. I think it's a good thing for people to walk away and do other things, try different styles and live life.

Once again the quetion to me is, what does the student leave with?

4. Have I blended the traditional skills needed to meet the reality of the life encounters they face today?

Is there any other way?

5. Have I as a Black Belt STOPPED learning?

I dropped out of the belt system, I find for me I have more freedom to learn without it.

[gmattson]

You can "edit" your post. Look at the bottom of your post, after you have saved it.

[Van Canna]

4. Have I blended the traditional skills needed to meet the reality of the life encounters they face today?

Yes and no, it is an eternal evolution, the only path is to adapt and improve, I will never have the complete picture or answer.

Dave > You are so correct, this is why the two must be taught separately and then combined so people understand the traditional forms, and then taught what will protect them in their own world. For example, we are not confronted with attackers of the various martial arts returning from the store, or attacks with only a bows or sticks to defend ourselves, the attackers is trained differently to attack us and we must adapt in order to survive both in business and in the streets. <
~~

And Dave hits the proverbial nail in the head.

But what he says and what has been the theme of my forum from its inception, is something that ‘disses’ and causes much angst in the Uechi factions and in the usual suspects, as we have seen in the past, at least when I have brought it up.

Their counterpoint is that none of what Dave, and similar other violence professionals, teach is necessary if one has learned ‘proper Uechi’ under the ‘proper teacher’ in the ‘proper dojo’ in the ‘proper organization’ _

And that if you train in traditional Uechi or other system you will be able to defend against anything /anyone in the streets.

To question this is Impiously irreverent. And complaints will flow to George in tractor trailers, at once slamming the ‘modern cross trainers’ _ and alleging that my writings offend the Uechi populous at large and preclude full attendance at SummerFest.


Rory reinforces Dave’s comments

Someone once said, "The bitch about ignorance isn't what you don't know. It's what you think you know that isn't so.

__

And

So much of good training is teaching to see accurately, to interpret accurately and to act decisively. Accuracy is operative. The bad part about illusions and denial is that you cannot see your own. If you are not careful, you will pass them on and they will become the 'truth' of the next generation.

~~

Rory

so much of bad training is instilling illusion, and so many people turn their brains off and accept the words.

Have strict traditionally trained martial arts practitioners ever succeeded In defensive combat? But of course. Yet, you must question the event: against whom/what/under what circumstances? Could modern combative cross training improve the odds?

Rory

I'm not a traditional instructor- I have a lot of experience, enough to never say that there is one right way, enough to value heart over strength or speed.

Educated enough to pursue modern training methods, experienced enough to see where those break down and where traditional training helps.

But I am a traditional (or maybe classical) teacher. It's about the students, about giving them the best chance I can in any shitstorm 0f blood and fear they might face.

It is about war stories and drills and flexibility and encouragement. It's about trying to teach them to do what I've done without the injuries and memories.

[Stryke]

Good stuff Van , Rory and Dave seem to be talking the same language .

As your forums been about all along .

the realists (maybe heretics) seem to be on the same page .

I think George summed it up when he mentioned Uechi was lots of things to different folks , and just happened to contain stuff that could be self defence techniques .

that stuff that Uechi is riddled with is effective , but it is the questions and expirementation , cross training and testing and learning that will make it functional and bring it too the surface for it`s original purpose .

Sounds like some good folks have a lot planned in providing oppurtunitys to expand that comfort zone , all kudos to the IUKF for delving into such material .

just the sort of thing that should get progressive martial artists to camp . Regardless of style or affiliation .

those that want to learn will learn .

[mhosea]

Easy, they've focused on a strip of canvas and not on learning. The reason for that is also easy, too much emphasis on getting the colored strips of canvas.

It cracks me up that red belt in martial arts in general means either various kyu ranks OR judan. And those mixed white and red belts for high dan ranks are just so gauche.

[cxt]

People no longer take the time to do any in-depth study of much at all anymore.

Everything is geared to the "fast food" set and that is how they want it.

Serious people in pretty much any endevor are rare---regardless of what or how the teacher conducts class.

[Dave Young]

1. Why do students leave a dojo after a 2-3 year window?

I certainly cannot speak from the perspective of a head of a dojo, but from the perspective of just another karate-ka and a student of other interests, 2-3 years is about the time frame where I hit a wall. For me in karate, it was a place where the first phase of my natural momentum and ability peaked, and then it really became work. For the first couple of years, the gains made are so easy to see and measure, and feed the excitement and drive to work out and work out hard. But after that, the progress comes more slowly, and the improvement more difficult to see. It's easy to feel stuck.

I have to say, however, making it through that wall to the other side is always an incredibly renewing and invigorating experience.

Mary..you and millions of others feel the same way but only a few every express it. People join the martial arts for many reasons, but the one thing I feel they all have in common is the willingness to learn, and once they feel they have learned all there is to know (which in many cases is WRONG) they leave. This is why we feel training has to be physically demanding (for conditioning), combined with mentally stimulating (for education and enhancing the learning process) and definitely self applicable (if it cannot be shown how it will apply to save their life if a situation presents itself)..they will lose interest in a short while...and if the dojo owners and other black belts do not continue to grow with their own education they will continue to hit these dry spots over and over with students.

We have developed a plan for them on increasing their student retention, hitting all of the areas I mentioned about, and hopefully by working with the IUKF and the other martial art organizations this will be very positive successful for them. So, if you know of any dojo owners or black belts needing this information feel free to give then this web site. Thank you for reading our forum and your posts are always welcome.

Thanks again,

Dave