Most effective teaching methods...

[gmattson]

are those that accomplish the instructor's purpose while retaining their students....

1. Will instilling fear keep students coming back?

2. Should the dojo standards accommodate all students or like the marines, should the dojo be looking for a "few good recruits"?

3. Is there a "formula for success" regarding holding students or is it simply a matter of some teachers being gifted in this area and others will never make it?

Ever read some of the new breed of motivating "hucksters" selling expensive courses and franchises to MA teachers falling into the #3 "loser" category who should be working at McDonald's instead of running a dojo?

[Van Canna]

1. Will instilling fear keep students coming back?

Good question, George. But it should be qualified. Most people are no strangers to fear _ in fact it is fear that brings most people to martial arts to begin with.

A good teacher ‘instills’ awareness, especially when telling his students they are being taught a defensive art.

When people read what Dave Young writes here _ is it instilling fear or awareness?

so correct, this is why the two must be taught separately and then combined so people understand the traditional forms, and then taught what will protect them in their own world. For example, we are not confronted with attackers of the various martial arts returning from the store, or attacks with only a bows or sticks to defend ourselves, the attackers is trained differently to attack us and we must adapt in order to survive both in business and in the streets.

[Dave Young]

1. Will instilling fear keep students coming back?

Good question, George. But it should be qualified. Most people are no strangers to fear _ in fact it is fear that brings most people to martial arts to begin with.

A good teacher ‘instills’ awareness, especially when telling his students they are being taught a defensive art.

When people read what Dave Young writes here _ is it instilling fear or awareness?

so correct, this is why the two must be taught separately and then combined so people understand the traditional forms, and then taught what will protect them in their own world. For example, we are not confronted with attackers of the various martial arts returning from the store, or attacks with only a bows or sticks to defend ourselves, the attackers is trained differently to attack us and we must adapt in order to survive both in business and in the streets.

Van,....It would be nice if we all lived in the same world we all try to think of inside our own imagination.......we need to train to prepare for what is evident and common...rather then what is possible......possibilities are endless...and in most cases very non practical...there are enough studies and research to allow us to be better trained...so I guess if we are training to feel good about ourselves, and to stay in shape both mentally and physically then traditional training is great....however if you are training to stay safe to save your life, to protect the lives of your loved ones and survive both criminally and civilly…then we might need to change the strategy a little bit....what do you think?

[Van Canna]

Dave,

Thank you for the response.

You are 100% correct. The problem we might see here, is a recurrent one.

Having been away from the forums for several years, you may not have read the ridiculous backlash against the modern combative 'experts' on my forum, and the flood of complaints to Gem about any of us 'daring' to question traditional training _

Stay on course Dave, you bring a breath of fresh air to these forums, and I will be your top-most ally.

Regards,

[Dave Young]

[quote="gmattson"]are those that accomplish the instructor's purpose while retaining their students....

1. Will instilling fear keep students coming back?

As Van said fear is one of the reasons people take martial arts...but I think the instructor needs to be better versed as to what really happens not just what might happen if all the moons are aligned etc.....

2. Should the dojo standards accommodate all students or like the marines, should the dojo be looking for a "few good recruits"?

Business is business..we are in the business of saving lives..we do not know the type of shape the vessel is they are bringing to us, and since death takes no prisoners and is an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER..so are we!!! Not everything works for everyone...so without a systematic buffet of strategies then it will limit the people who do eat there..wouldn't you agree?

3. Is there a "formula for success" regarding holding students or is it simply a matter of some teachers being gifted in this area and others will never make it?

YES, there is...however you run into the same problem I do at times....just because you are certified as an instructor..this certification does not necessarily make you a good instructor...you have heard the old saying..."What do you call a person who graduated last in medical school....-DOCTOR..the same applies in any industry..even ours..There are MANY text book heroes, power point warriors as we say......Some people can get better once they look outside of themselves.....For some this is very hard because they are legends in their own minds, and need remember they are training people with little to no experience in the beginning then as time moves on they get experience and you need to grow with that experience.....The teacher will become the student in time...but in reality..it should take a VERY long time...

Ever read some of the new breed of motivating "hucksters" selling expensive courses and franchises to MA teachers falling into the #3 "loser" category who should be working at McDonald's instead of running a dojo?[/quote

[b]Yes we do and I am sure a lot of people do....which is why without a solid foundation people just chase the wind...The bottom line is we can be better as a team and make our own category..we can set the example for others to follow, we can grow and learn new ideas, but in order to work inside the box..you need skills learned outside the box for success... I am hoping now after 4 years there is change.....[/b]

[Dave Young]

[quote="Van Canna"]Dave,

Thank you for the response.

You are 100% correct. The problem we might see here, is a recurrent one.

Having been away from the forums for several years, you may not have read the ridiculous backlash against the modern combative 'experts' on my forum, and the flood of complaints to Gem about any of us 'daring' to question traditional training _WOW I am sur eyou got a bashing...

Stay on course Dave, you bring a breath of fresh air to these forums, and I will be your top-most ally. THANK YOU VAN

[b]We all need allies......they said the world is changed one person at a time....If we each bring two new friends and so on we can start the change....I welcome your help...and with that being said change is very scary for some..it can identify weakness, failure of personal growth, lack of needed skills...etc......But..... without change EVERYTHING FAILS evidentially.! My definition of a warrior is..."A warrior is defined as an indivdual who over comes personal fear and inhibition to accomplish the task at hand.......the question is ....Van...where have all the true warriors gone!..help me find them....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your out there.....lets go........![b][/b]

[cxt]

Part of the problem is the students.

We live in a "fast-food" culture that places more importance on "fast and easy" than it does on "effectivness."

People no longer wish to spend years developing strong skills--they want it "now" and when they find out how long it takes and how hard it is they seek a "easier" route--or one that claims such.

Not just martial arts---the "fast food' culture is hitting pretty much every hobby/activity.

[Dave Young]

Part of the problem is the students.

We live in a "fast-food" culture that places more importance on "fast and easy" than it does on "effectivness."

People no longer wish to spend years developing strong skills--they want it "now" and when they find out how long it takes and how hard it is they seek a "easier" route--or one that claims such.

Not just martial arts---the "fast food' culture is hitting pretty much every hobby/activity.

Your comments about fast food is very correct, and this has been many years coming especially if you only feed them the same food..OVER AND OVER AGAIN...(how sick would you get it you only ate steak, I don't care how many different ways you cooked it, it would still be steak.... but it is our jobs as professional trainers to help them learn to eat this fast food slower for better digestion. Over the years we have learned and developed other ways in training to assist us in this process.

We are able to take a simple movement and give them various ways to learn it, challenging their minds, building their bodies. One main problem is most black belts I have met only teach others as they have learned...which is not very effective especially since things have somewhat changed over time when they were learning it.

"A great fighter only makes him a great fighter..not a great teacher" this is a learned and continuous process, most professionals do not want to take the time to learn themselves so how can they expect others to invest their own time in learning.....

Just more food for thought! Thanks for stopping by please visit the other threads in our forum, your comments are always welcome.

Dave

Dave[/i][/b]

[miked]

Dave,

Unfortunately, we have not been able to meet as I am based in Los Angeles. (BTW you have met my seniors, Steve Goss, Mehran Shahkar and Dave Sargent a year or two ago at GEM's summer camp.).

Over the past few years I have posted videos and articles to Van's forums wherein traditional MA's have used their skills to "take out" bad guys. Additionally, the late Shotokan Master Bernie Weiss, who was based in LA, compiled a history of traditional MA students who sucessfully used their skills on the street. I am also personally aware of a number of Uechi folks who have come out ahead during the most dire of circumstances.

As I once mentioned to Van, for every story where someone can state that a traditional MA had the worst of a real life situation, I can counter with at least one factual story where it went the other way.

So, to the point, in my view, there is nothing lacking in the techniques of traditional styles, with regards to self-defense. I thnk the rub comes between the manner of instruction and the personal characteristics and inclinations of each student.

Coments?

All the best,

Mike D.
Los Angeles

[miked]

Have you seen the most recent National Geographic special where they scientificaly measured the force, speed and agility of top-ranked martial artists?

The results proved that the force of a well executed kick or punch equates to the damage caused by a car crash and that the speed of techniques is literally faster than the blink of eye.

The researchers who were initially skeptical were, at the end of the testing, shocked to see such results.

Of course, these results were accomplished by well-conditioned and very skillfull MA's.

Mike D.

[Dave Young]

Unfortunately, we have not been able to meet as I am based in Los Angeles. (BTW you have met my seniors, Steve Goss, Mehran Shahkar and Dave Sargent a year or two ago at GEM's summer camp.).

[b]Plese give my regards to your seniors, I am sorry I do not remember them as it was over 4 years ago, and I only trained with a small group of peole at that one....[/b]

[quote]Over the past few years I have posted videos and articles to Van's forums wherein traditional MA's have used their skills to "take out" bad guys. Additionally, the late Shotokan Master Bernie Weiss, who was based in LA, compiled a history of traditional MA students who sucessfully used their skills on the street. I am also personally aware of a number of Uechi folks who have come out ahead during the most dire of circumstances. As I once mentioned to Van, for every story where someone can state that a traditional MA had the worst of a real life situation, I can counter with at least one factual story where it went the other way.

Again that is wonderful you know people who have survived a real life encounter, and used there TMA skills to win...I congradulate them and any one really who has surived a real life encounter. I am sorry you have not been in the circles of conversations we have had prior to you joining our forum. And since you asked from my comments and opinion surviving a real life encounter is only a small part of the big picture as a whole. IF this was the case by itself then we would not need any other skills to help us in this area of personal surival.

So, to the point, in my view, there is nothing lacking in the techniques of traditional styles, with regards to self-defense. I thnk the rub comes between the manner of instruction and the personal characteristics and inclinations of each student.
Coments?

[i][b][i][b]We have to ask ourselves to look at it in this regard;

"Does a skilled person being confronted by a non skilled person and wins the fight..does it validate his skills, and if so then to what level?"

"If a skills person fighitng another skilled person and wins does it mean that the skill level of the person who won is better or is the style he trains in better, or is it the lack of skill from the person fighting him?"

"I would support your suggest of TMA being survival ready if both people were being confronted had the same skill, and level of training..however the real world people we are confronted with will not wear a shirt or posted sign telling us there skill or style until after it is over.....so with this being the reality of our encounters, along with many other inside and outside factors to determine this there needs to be change, enhancement and growth on all catagories of skills, intensity levels and building experience...which in a short to long version this is what we are talking about...[/b][/i]

Good luck ot you and thanks for joining our forum...

Dave[/b][/i][/b]

[Dave Young]

Have you seen the most recent National Geographic special where they scientificaly measured the force, speed and agility of top-ranked martial artists?

The results proved that the force of a well executed kick or punch equates to the damage caused by a car crash and that the speed of techniques is literally faster than the blink of eye.

The researchers who were initially skeptical were, at the end of the testing, shocked to see such results.

Of course, these results were accomplished by well-conditioned and very skillfull MA's.

Mike D.

Yes the show was great....I was very lucky to speak with these two professional as since I hosted a show for National Geographic in early 2006...I got to speak with them while they were filming the show on some ideas....

Both parts of the show were great...very few professionals learn how to actually generate power...breaking boards and concrete blocks are very visual...but again striking a real person is totally different, which is what we showed at the Summerfest this past July.....this show was a good explanation of personally delivering power from hands and feet. But did you see where it was the boxer with the punch who generated more power with his hands then ANY martial artist....and it was the Muay Tai fighter who knees and kicks were the quickest and strongest of all martial artist they tested...it was very interesting and supported what we are trying to say and why we are having the first certification camp in Mount Dora, FL on the system we are certifying other professionals in.....Again great show! Thanks for stopping by....

Dave

[Dave Young]

The person who ‘shuns’ an opportunity to ‘make things better’ because of obduracy is short changing himself and his students.

[/quote]

[b]Well written Van...

Help us get the word out for our first certification in March of 2007 in Mount Dora, FL...hope to see you there if your schedule permits.....Hope you are well and I look forward to seeing you again.

Be well my friend...
Dave[/b]

[gmattson]

NewsLetter.... Hopefully will be sent out tomorrow (Sun 9/24/06).

In the newsletter, Dave summarizes his new "realist" self defense component for traditional dojo.

You can subscribe (its free) to this newsletter on the home page.

[Van Canna]

The person who ‘shuns’ an opportunity to ‘make things better’ because of obduracy is short changing himself and his students.

[b]Well written Van...

Help us get the word out for our first certification in March of 2007 in Mount Dora, FL...hope to see you there if your schedule permits.....Hope you are well and I look forward to seeing you again.

Be well my friend...
Dave[/b][/quote]

Thank you Dave.

Would love to start a thread on my page about this certification program.

If you send me the outline, I will post it and open it for discussion. Hopefully you and others will discuss it more in detail so as to generate interest.

Excactly what will one need to do physically and need to learn tactically/conceptually,to be certified?

One of the problems you see, is that TMAs seem to be constantly reminded on other forums that in order to survive the streets, dojo work is all they need.

Maybe so, but nothing wrong in attacking the problem from a different angle, such as yours_

But as long as you see people feel threatned by modern combatives discussions, your program will suffer in attendance.