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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:26 am 
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I am teaching in Arizona this week during and each class we go through a series of definitions.....I am sure you have your own defintion which is WHY we want to hear them....

What is the definition of Reality Fight....sparked some deep conversation and bruised some egos....But then again it is just an ego.....unless of course it is yours.... :rofl:

First lets talk about what is NOT a reality fight.....

UFC
Vale Tudo
Pride
Backyard Fights
Underground Fighting
Your Back Yard Reunion
The X-Men Series
WWE
Judo Tournments
ATA Events
Boxing Matches
Sparing

Please do not confuse people punching another with or without gloves reality...yes they are REALLY get HIT but you can QUIT/TAP OUT at ANY time and some even WEAR GLOVES...and you CANNOT BITE, Strike in the GROIN, HEAD BUTT..and there is a Referee.....

If I am not mistaken in a REAL FIGHT you get all of the above mentioned (bites, hit in the groin, head butts and you wear some type of hand protection, and you have a Referee! Do you not?.....

And like all threads in here I expect some of the well written, verbally articulated challenges or at least your own opinion.... which is why I mentioned this thread....

BUT PLEASE..if you have not been in a real fight for YOUR OWN LIFE ...Then give us just that....start your reply with...it is my opinion, or when I had my last attack or fight this happened....

There is a big difference between Professional Opinion....and Professional Fact...

Professional Opinion is just that..your own thoughts, ideas, what you believe or think is to be true...BUT IT IS NOT TRUE!...

Professional Fact....is just that....Your First Hand Personal Experience of what actually HAPPENED...

I hope you get the point....IN All of these sporting events.....YOUR own life is NOT in ANY physical Danger...the intent of the attacker is at best to only hurt you, knock you out.... and their are RULES and A Referee....

Our Definition of a Reality Fight is...YOUR OWN LIFE IS IN IMMEDIATE DANGER meaning you could DIE (Because the other person is TRYING TO kill you not just hit you....and there are NO RULES or Referee....

Please share with us your own Defintions of Reality...

Thanks

Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:42 am 
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I don't think I had the opportunity to meet you....So thank you for your input...

I wish I could agree, but as you put it....the RBSD schools do not do the meat and potatoes.....I would suggest maybe changing the restaurant you have been eating at.....

The type of Reality Based Self Defense we are supporting in our classes with over 30 years of experience and training is not a fade or a group of separate techniques to handle a confrontation it has a basic history, research, factual physical responses to actual attacks supported by scientific studies by many different professionals in the industry like Dr. Bill Lewinsky from the Force Science Research Center and the various DOJ's in the US who post actual reports on the deaths of our officers in the US along with the Uniform Crime Report published by the FBI.

A training system or martial arts style that does not support growth or continuous education expanding on its principals is merely just that...the end of it's own means....

And people will continue searching......until they feel confident and comfortable there needs are met....This foundation is to build on and instill courage and discipline in the student in the real world they live in daily.

Traditional Martial Arts is and will always be a vital piece personal defense..however when failing to grow within a system in the end the system fails...and a definition of failing is the loss of a life.......

Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:12 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Hey i have no idea how you teach, im not talking about you. :)

What i mean by meat and potatoes is that they pretty much have to be confortable with getting hit and getting hurt, throwing punches and connecting, comfort with all three ranges of fighting.




It's just that you look on the internet, lots of RBSD post on forums and have websites about how sport fighting is just sport, look at it as useless for street defence.

Hell on BULLSHIDO.com some moderators there have actually visited some krav maga/RBSD schools.

Some are good, others are bad apprently.

Tony Blaur gets rave reviews, i have yet to year anyone say anything negative about him, so far he gets compliments. Apprently he's one RBSD guy who gets alot of respect. Ironically i first learned about him through rick and was pleasantly surprised to find him mentioned on Bullshido with praise(thats rare on that snarky testosteroine filled forum)

Other RBSD teachers on the other hand have gotten bad reps(do a search on systema and krav maga) some even fought moderators(im not kidding)

If you can't punch somone in the face with your fist, how will you get thier eye with your fingers?


Look at MMA/muay thai/boxing/san shou:

those guys actually hit eachother and in the ring they may be able to tap out or give up but they are in a dynamic environment.

I mean it would be foolish to deny the benefits of such training.



Im in complete agreement that it isnt a complete fighting system, its made for the ring and only the ring.
If i thought otherwise i would not be training in my currents school.





But dont you think you could learn alot in terms of street defence from sport styles?


Sport fighting certainly cannot replace RBSD, they are too different. Weapon defence, groin kicks, head butts, stomping, multiple opponets, clothing to grapple, fighting with an injured arm or when blinded, all change everything.





Damn i think i was rambling for most of this thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:32 am 
Good topic

a fight with no rules , no ref , an assualt or even perhaps mutual confrontation , is different than one goverend by ruleset .

however there is a large crossover .

being a survivor of a few real altercations is not the magic bullet either .

some folks will go through the real thing and not learn anything .

some will find some answers in terms of mindset phsyche , and more importantly perhaps ask the real questions .

having said that it`s all perspective , A good ring fighter could go out pick a fight or two or a hundred , and then brag how they have had a hundred street fights and never been beaten , it would be simple ......

but would they really have been in a real fight ?

I think were talking about Assault , the ambush , and the physchological ramifications that go with that .

the desperation , the intent and will to overcome .

Look forward to where this thread may go .

Real fight ...... ring fighters are fighting for real , they arent fighting for there lives though .

A real fight to me would be when your fighting for the will to survive , to overcome , to continue despite your failure or demise , to fight because it`s the only real thing you have , to go on or out the way you intend to live your life .


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:54 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Stryke wrote:
Good topic

a fight with no rules , no ref , an assualt or even perhaps mutual confrontation , is different than one goverend by ruleset .

however there is a large crossover .

being a survivor of a few real altercations is not the magic bullet either .

some folks will go through the real thing and not learn anything .

some will find some answers in terms of mindset phsyche , and more importantly perhaps ask the real questions .

having said that it`s all perspective , A good ring fighter could go out pick a fight or two or a hundred , and then brag how they have had a hundred street fights and never been beaten , it would be simple ......

but would they really have been in a real fight ?

I think were talking about Assault , the ambush , and the physchological ramifications that go with that .

the desperation , the intent and will to overcome .

Look forward to where this thread may go .

Real fight ...... ring fighters are fighting for real , they arent fighting for there lives though .

A real fight to me would be when your fighting for the will to survive , to overcome , to continue despite your failure or demise , to fight because it`s the only real thing you have , to go on or out the way you intend to live your life .



Great post Marcus.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:31 am 
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This subject gets very broad very quickly. Everything is "real" but it is only what it is, and we may not be able to put it in a box we are comfortable with.

The problem is that too many things can be put under a single label. Violence is conflict with a risk of injury, right? So war and a boxing match and a 17th century duel and rape and an ugly arrest and a cell extraction and a hostage rescue are all violence, right? So there all the same, right?...

But they aren't. Not even close.

And the cross-over isn't as big as everyone wants to think it is, either. That's not aimed specifically at you, Marcus. We all have an idea of what a "fight", especially a "real fight" is like and we all (maybe not all, maybe only those who are trying to train for real) have worked hard to adapt our training to that... but none of us have it right. Hell, General Zinni made the comment that war isn't like war- the lessons he learned fighting in mountains, jungles, swamps and urban environments didn't cross over to each other.

Two big differences just to think about.

First, look at Dave's list (ignoring movies and other silliness) all of the listed events have one thing in common: They are mutual. If you are boxing on Thursday or going to your family reunion on Saturday, you know it. You don't know if you will ever be forced off the road and jumped by a pickup full of baseball bat wielding rednecks and you certainly don't know the day and the hour.

In a Vale Tudo match, you know what you will be facing in terms of opponent and techniques. In real life, not only do you not know if the pickup truck scenario will ever happen you also don't know if you will ever wake up with an intruder in your room or be mugged or get caught in a soccer riot. You can't know specifically what to prepare for.

The second big difference (and there are far more than two) is that you can be punished in an event for winning 'wrong'. If someone grabs you and throws you to the ground and proceeds to strangle you, shooting is good self-defense... unless it's an MMA match in which case it is murder. Someone shoots at you and you run, it's good self-defense... unless you are a soldier and it is then desertion.

Rory


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:48 am 
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THANK YOU both for sharing your comments on this topic...I was hoping especially after the summerfst there would be more opinions and comments...I am hopi9ng in more time we will have others....THANKS AGAIN!

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:54 am 
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I understand the point. I've also been on point when it becomes invalid.

It's not true that you will fight the way you train. You will fight in this weird mix of instinct, fear, stress hormone soup with an influence from how you trained, but you will TRY to fight the way you trained, usually.

I like to fight people from behind. I have a host of really cool, efficient "clearing" moves for infighting that either turn the threat or place me behind him. If I primarily boxed, this would never occur to me.

I've grappled a lot, and had to unlearn most of it- because it is idiotic and inefficient to pin someone on his back. It's not only easier but safer to put them face down.

One of my friends (our current training sergeant) risked being blinded or killed because about two minutes into a fight with an inmate who was trying to gouge, choke and bite, the officer realized that he had been mentally and physically going for a pin. The officer had been a college wrestler and did what he had trained to do. It shook him up badly enough to completely rethink his skills.

AAAhmed46 (do you have something shorter I can call you?) the example you gave the person was injured and, as you pointed out, could have been killed, because he tried to apply a specific skill in an innappropriate situation. His injuries (and his death, had the threats chosen to keep kicking instead of leaving) could have been directly attributed to bringing an MMA mindset, skills and instincts to real life.

Rory


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:02 am 
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Call me Adam for short.


Anyway, are you the same Rory, the prison warden dude on a DVD with Bill Glasheen?



Quote:
the example you gave the person was injured and, as you pointed out, could have been killed, because he tried to apply a specific skill in an innappropriate situation. His injuries (and his death, had the threats chosen to keep kicking instead of leaving) could have been directly attributed to bringing an MMA mindset, skills and instincts to real life.


Yeah thats basically the impression i got.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:04 am 
Rory I agree with everything youve said , however I believe the crossover between training , competing and reality I beleive is large depending on the training .

And of course rulset comes in so maybe I am contradicting myself .

I beleive attribute development is a big part of what good training is about .

but rulsesets are valid to segment skillsets to isolate and specialise , maybe it`s a question of wether were aware of what we are using the methods/tools for , in a more holistic sense .



Your post as usuall is very astute .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:48 pm 
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Training in a method in which you can tap out, or quit does not make the training useless. Geez, what type of training would we be talking about if you could not stop when you were overwhelmed.

UFC, Vale Tudo and other give you some training in handling adrenalin and yet still moving fluidly, continuing once you get hit etc

Trouble with some of the methods like UFC is you can rack up so many injuries that you end up more knowledgeable and well trained but sort of gimpy

As far as techniques for a fight, you can almost take the current UFC rules - reverse them - and you have the techniques you should use in a fight


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:28 am 
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Here is something else to think about too....

Type of student you are training...
Their physical abilities
Mental mind set
Physical strength
Intelligence (Education and Street Smarts)
Moral courage
Dedication to their trade....etc...
Are you training an Athlete or Non-Athlete
Do they have any life experiences to relate and compare the training to....etc...

Length of time needed before they reach a "Survival Level of Proficiency,"...There is a lot ot be said about the old joke of 'What do you call the guy who graduated last in his medical school...DOCTOR....

Follow up or sustaining training - Continuous education and skills - Are the techniques based on FINE or GROSS motor skill related?

At what point will I be tested to ensure competency, and once I do how hard or easy it is for me to maintain my needed level for success?

What am I training this person to do...personally survival, civilly and criminally, physical and mentally, life and death...

(If I was training a person to enter a ring and fight another person in a sporting event with rules, referees, and guidelines, it would be different training for a person being taught to fight for their life in the real world without a referee, rules or guidelines)

When we train a SWAT Team Member, Police Officer, Correction Officers, Military personnel, or a Civilian to confront a real person with real motives, no rules and referees....our training needs to be direction these areas.

Thanks again for your comments and opinion...keep them coming!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:19 am 
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Adam- Yeah, that's me, but I'm a sergeant, not the warden.

Bruise- This is one of the things that is hardest to get through, because it is one of the things that is both so right and potentially so wrong. This makes so much sense:

"UFC, Vale Tudo and other give you some training in handling adrenalin and yet still moving fluidly, continuing once you get hit etc "

But it's the one thing I disagree with most in your post. You get something about handling adrenaline, but it's the controlled adrenaline of an expected fight, not the dump of an ambush. It teaches you how to move fluidly when, under a real bad dump, that is physically impossible. And it teaches you how to respond after you are hit, but it teaches you how to respond as if you were in that venue, which is rarely the right response outside of the venue.
Your other points are perfectly valid.

Marcus and Dave, between them, hit the right answer. This subject is unbelievably complex if you look at it closely. If we were ever to understand it we would have to be conversant in physics, physiology, group dynamics, evolutionary biology, evolutionary psychology, criminology, criminal law, endocrinology, athletics, strategy, and even moral philosopy.

Within each strike there is power generation, timing and targeting; there is a why to the strike (moral justification: "why am I hitting this person?" and strategic "Why strike instead of close? Why this strike?") and on and on, each aspect affecting each movement and instant of time...

And survival requires a simple and fast answer to this complex problem.

This is why matches and Vale Tudo and kata and all the aspects of training you can imagine are important- each work a piece or a few pieces of this big problem. It's also why specific strategy training and introspection is important, so that you can let your subconscious deal with all the details.

It's also why any one of those training methods can be the worst possible- because the minute you think one of those is IT, you lock on to an idea of the fight and the win that only exists in your head. If you are lucky and your next encounter matches the picture, you'll be fine and your training method will be validated (in your eyes)... if not, you'll be hurt and possibly blame the training method or the style.

Dave wrote something worth looking at critically:

Type of student you are training...
Their physical abilities
Mental mind set
Physical strength
Intelligence (Education and Street Smarts)
Moral courage
Dedication to their trade....etc...
Are you training an Athlete or Non-Athlete
Do they have any life experiences to relate and compare the training to....etc...

Length of time needed before they reach a "Survival Level of Proficiency,"...


The list is important and frustrating. Not only are many of these things you can't accurately gauge about the student, many of these things you can't accurately gauge about yourself. I want to say "Not until you've been in the #####." But the truth is that there are many different flavors of ##### and just because you did well in a brawl or even a firefight doesn't mean that you won't choke when you have to do first aid on your child in a natural disaster.

The "Survival Level of Proficiency" needed the quotes. It's a relative state and no one knows how much skill or heart or fitness an individual will need to survive what that individual will some day face. We can't even know what, if anything, they will face. What was the "Survival Level of Proficiency" in the Blackhawk Down scenario? Even in less extreme scenarios luck plays a role.

Rory


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:40 am 
Reminds me off a joke we use on site , no offence to any experts but it sums up how complex and difficult this subject is .

definition of expert

an X is an unknown quantity .

and a spurt is a drip under pressure .

who we are training is important , actually it makes the best against sport based approaches IMHO , becuase in sport based curriculum the physical alpha type ussually prevail , the fact being there the most likely to not need self defence .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Rory,

Most excellent post, my friend.

_________________
Van


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