knife and scenarios

knife and scenarios

Postby Dana Sheets » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:42 pm

warning, strong language and australian accents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

Some things seem OK - but many strategies were only successful after they'd been slashed enough for the attacker to wear themselves out a bit.
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Hmmmm

Postby Roy Bedard » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:58 pm

So here is a good glimpse into the ugliness of combat. No pre-arranged movements, no pre-arranged responses. Only a sudden primal survival reaction that leaves the attacked cut in almost every case.

Notice the instructor shouts only to get the knife. There is no shouts about knee to the stomach, strike the groin, elbow to the head. Only - "get the knife".

This is the concept introduced by many combat specialists and is so poignantly described in Gladwell's book BLINK. It is also the theory of the Chess game that I posted on this forum. If you want to engineer a strategy you first study the innate response. You figure out what happens in the blink of an eye. You do these tests a bunch of times and come to understand what your hands do, your body does, your mind does when suddenly and brutally attacked. Then you train to it. You see, you cannot train a first response, so you have to learn to train to the first response.

Looking at these videos you see a few episodes where these guys try to make something happen. They get lost in a technique that isn't working. They get stabbed and slashed and still they work that single technique ad nauseum. This is what happens when we over-engineer a response in the dojo. We cloud the issue by suggesting that there is one better solution to the problem than any other. We suggest that there is one right solution and we drill it. What we discover by testing the trained response is that the law of specificity almost always turns the fight to the favor of the assailant. In our business we have to learn how to reverse engineer our tactics. Let the BLINK factor speak for itself.

So what to do about these types of attacks as a teacher? How do you get students to prepare for them? How do you teach to survive them?

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to play devil's advocate on this one and see what others have to say.

Good stuff Dana.
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Postby Rick Wilson » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:48 am

“Looking at these videos you see a few episodes where these guys try to make something happen. They get lost in a technique that isn't working. They get stabbed and slashed and still they work that single technique ad nauseum. This is what happens when we over-engineer a response in the dojo. We cloud the issue by suggesting that there is one better solution to the problem than any other. We suggest that there is one right solution and we drill it. What we discover by testing the trained response is that the law of specificity almost always turns the fight to the favor of the assailant. In our business we have to learn how to reverse engineer our tactics. Let the BLINK factor speak for itself.”

This sums up what I saw far better than I could have.

The way to growth in training partially lies in the ability to “give up” and “let go” of what proves to not be working.

I liked the training approach though.

Now try that in a closed in space simulating an elevator for even more fun.
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Postby Rick Wilson » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:09 am

Here is another clip of this group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJflGdL ... ed&search=

You can see the same approach they use here (more successfully) is what they took into that other clip.

They are also working the pre-emptive strike on this clip -- I liked it.

They are pushing the training set ups in the right direction.
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:33 pm

I don't know what guidelines were in place for the drill, but one thing I noticed is that the unarmed fighter always seemed to wait for the the knife attack. As soon as you know there is a knife in play, I think you need to do something fast. For the drill, it would probably be to immediately strike the armed opponent. My one "real life" experience happened when I was 11. As soon as I saw the knife I was gone. No delay, no posturing. I still see escape as a reasonable response to a knife attack.

Sincerely,

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Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:53 pm

On the knife scenario thread, Roy wrote
So here is a good glimpse into the ugliness of combat. No pre-arranged movements, no pre-arranged responses. Only a sudden primal survival reaction that leaves the attacked cut in almost every case.


This is the concept introduced by many combat specialists and is so poignantly described in Gladwell's book BLINK. It is also the theory of the Chess game that I posted on this forum. If you want to engineer a strategy you first study the innate response. You figure out what happens in the blink of an eye. You do these tests a bunch of times and come to understand what your hands do, your body does, and your mind does when suddenly and brutally attacked. Then you train to it. You see, you cannot train a first response, so you have to learn to train to the first response.

Looking at these videos you see a few episodes where these guys try to make something happen. They get lost in a technique that isn't working. They get stabbed and slashed and still they work that single technique ad nauseum.

This is what happens when we over-engineer a response in the dojo. We cloud the issue by suggesting that there is one better solution to the problem than any other. We suggest that there is one right solution and we drill it.

What we discover by testing the trained response is that the law of specificity almost always turns the fight to the favor of the assailant. In our business we have to learn how to reverse engineer our tactics. Let the BLINK factor speak for itself.

So what to do about these types of attacks as a teacher? How do you get students to prepare for them? How do you teach to survive them?


Pretty sobering, especially when we think of what we do in a dojo during a typical workout. As Roy points out _ we can do what we do, but be careful how you sell it.
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:54 pm

Norm
I don't know what guidelines were in place for the drill, but one thing I noticed is that the unarmed fighter always seemed to wait for the knife attack. As soon as you know there is a knife in play, I think you need to do something fast. For the drill, it would probably be to immediately strike the armed opponent.


Well, how do we train, Norm? Do you think that the way we train [wait for the punch/attack to be thrown before we ‘block it and counter’] might get us into to the same ‘wait’ situation as above? If not, why not?
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:56 pm

Rick Wilson
They are also working the pre-emptive strike on this clip -- I liked it.



Right on, and sobering.


If you train/drill _ to take a stance and wait for an attack to come, so you can block it and counter _ aren’t we deeply programming the very same thing Norm observed? _ What drills should we practice in our dojo?

And what makes us think that we ‘will know’ when a knife enters the play? The knife will almost always be a surprise to us.
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:57 pm

The best way to learn and to drill to embed the learning is what Roy describes
If you want to engineer a strategy you first study the innate response. You figure out what happens in the blink of an eye. You do these tests a bunch of times and come to understand what your hands do, your body does, and your mind does when suddenly and brutally attacked. Then you train to it. You see, you cannot train a first response, so you have to learn to train to the first response.
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The missing link in our training

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:59 pm

You also work very/very hard at learning something else that not many dojos practice their students in.

To me this what really makes a martial art 'proficient' aside any technique.

 Sammy Franco calls it ‘Defensive recognition’ _ the ability to recognize/sense _ and identify that an attack has occurred or is incipient. <

Then you must train in acquiring the ability to trigger a ‘defensive solution’ with the appropriate tactic and tools. Either flight or fight.

Next you train to learn to respond in ways that denies the opponent his freedom of any intended movement in a final manner as Dave young points out.

And careful about what you ‘bring to bear’ upon the opponent.

It is all well and good to say ‘I’ll preempt him’ _ but what do you hope to do this with? Does what you ‘bring’ really have any stopping power?

Or will you make this worse for yourself because you ‘dared’ to fight back?
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Postby Roy Bedard » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:13 pm

It is hard for us to believe that the proper response to sudden aggressive attacks may already be built in.
As Carl Jung described the collective unconscious, he proposed that human experiences can actually be passed on through the generations as sort of a psychological DNA. If true, combat has to be one of the most entrenched components of our psyche.

The fight and flight response is well observed amongst all members of any given species. A sudden violent attack calls upon the limbic system to take some action when a deadly, and the operative word is deadly, threat exists. The response of the body is automatic. It cannot be fully controlled except in some small way through proper breathing exercises. There is a chemical reaction that will override a well thought out rational plan in order to protect the one who is burdened with the sudden bad news that they may be killed in the next few moments.

As Norm points out, a first strike, a pre-emptive strike is a good idea. Regrettably, it is the not realizing part that results in pre-emptive strikes rarely occuring. To present an effective defense with a pre-emptive attack, where you are actually in control of your attack or defense, where your body has not engaged the limbic system, requires that you first understand the cues and key features of an imminent attack...and be right about it.

James Burke, in his book The Day the Universe changed says, "It is the brain which sees, not the eye. Reality is in the brain before it is experienced, or else the signals we get from the eye would make no sense." So from a training perspective if we are to train for defense against "real" attacks, we have to invent reality in a controlled environment. We have to make it seem real. We have to use props and specific environments. We have to use actors and bring about real emotions to induce combat stress. Yes, we have to get out of the Gi, and even out of the dojo. We have to spend less time studying specific techniques and more time studying specific situations. We have to invent scenarios that are not fantastic or outlandish, but rather typical in order to discern the features of human interactions that are normal versus those that are abnormal in order to create a mechanism for an early warning system that tells us that danger is present. In short, we have to come of age.
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:05 pm

Amen :)
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:09 pm

It is extremely difficult, at least for me, to try to drill students using pre-emptive strikes. One thing I have said over and over again, is that even if you are "defensive," the fight begins BEFORE the first punch is thrown. Somebody is often being overly agressive, loud, pointing or poking, red faced, or even calmly and quickly closing distance. These factors indicate you're in a fight, even if you haven't been hit yet. I know there has been a lot written on this forum regarding the chemical cocktail, dilating pupils, and other physical manifestations of combat. But isn't the key to survival being open to recognize the feeling and be willing to act on it? Hopefully what I say and the drills we do will help a student to recognize he or she is in a fight before the attack, and that will allow a fight or flight response.

I suppose it's a far cry from perfect, but it is an attempt to have training mirror reality.

Sincerely,

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Postby MikeK » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:54 pm

Yes, we have to get out of the Gi, and even out of the dojo.


But, but, then we wouldn't be doing karate! 8O

Or so I've been told. :lol:

I agree 100% with what you are saying Roy, the biggest problem for civilians like me is where to find instructors qualified to teach these things, and then have them available long enough for it to sink in.
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Postby Van Canna » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 pm

Norm,

You are the exception on this.

Most other teachers will argue > not necessary_ all you need is in Uechi. <

Ok :wink:
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