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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:41 pm 
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Van,

I won't opine as to whether all we need is in Uechi. We all have varied needs. I would hate to be a soldier armed with only a Uechi Ryu black belt. Nevertheless, Uechi is a nice tool to have in the tool box.

However, I don't believe that anticipating a confrontation by striking first is in any way anti-Uechi. Uechi Ryu training should teach us some important basic skills such as how to deliver a strike with power; move with balance; strike with movement; and guage eye distance. These skills should help deliver a convincing "first" strike. The kata and exercises compromise a system of study so students can learn skills. It is up to teachers and students to look beyond the exercises to determine how to best apply the lessons learned. I would argue that a first, or anticipatory attack is a valid application of Uechi Ryu skills.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:43 pm 
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>I would argue that a first, or anticipatory attack is a valid application of Uechi Ryu skills. <

Agreed. But many reading this will not agree.

They will argue that first _ Uechi is a defensive style_ because every kata begins with a block _ because every drill nurtures blocking then countering_

Next they will argue that stryking first is illegal_ you will be prosecuted and sued.

You have read all this in the past on my page.

Secondly _ stopping power_ is a very complex subject feeding lots of delusive thinking.

It was Dave Young, at camp, who made the comment he observed many not able to hit convincingly in his scenarios.

We should put this question to him as to what is needed to develop true stopping power, given the realities of who and what assaillants may be.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:42 pm 
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These last few posts pose some very intriguing issues. First to Mike and the tounge in cheek comment about getting out of the dojo being the equivalent of no longer doing karate. I am certain that alot of people believe exactly that and this is clearly THE problem with reality style combat.

To those, I would remind them that karate is a form of self defense only if you want it to be. It can also be a cultural study, a fitness program, a macho endeavor to impress your friends, a money maker and even a babysitting service. Intent matters.

But as a self defense system it has to be looked at and commented on from the back of the room. It has to be reverse engineered to answer the question, "Why do we do what we do?"
When you free yourself from dogma you recognize that time and place matter. The karate practitioners paradigm is built mostly upon eighteenth century Asian combat, designed specifically for that distinct time and place under those cultural values, attitudes and norms. Because of this single reference point it can be argued that karate is "more real" when practiced in Asia which still embraces many of those cultural norms that were around at the time of karate's birth. Certainly those times have changed, but what is really different is the rules of engagement in the west. The west is, and has been a strikingly different culture with a different set of values, attitudes and norms. The west is more independent, more individual, less homogenized as a culture and it breeds a different, more aggressive,more brutal breed of predatory criminal. Absent drunken barroom fights, a fight in the west is far more likely to result in serious injury or death. The US consistantly posts top numbers for aggravated assault and murder when compared to all of the developed nations during times of peace and among a civilian population.


So what we see when we take the raw martial arts and apply them to actual combat in America is that they are a bit mismatched. They aren't necesarily designed to deal with the new kinds of attacks that the west offers; that's obvious, but I think in a more profound sense, they are operating in a highly litigous society that discourages pre-emptive strikes and mentally conditions its members to be able to articulate the attack that was percieved so that reasonable people, who will stand in judgement agree that the defense was necessary. This overly cautious mindset causes a form of denial that has become a cultural norm. It creates a habit of dismissing critical intuitive feelings that an attack is imminent. In America we force the art to be a science, and science requires proofs. Gut feeling, intuition, spider-sense, call it what you will are all very real things indeed, but very indefensible. That's why in the last post I said that... you have to be right.

How does one describe intuition to a peer group who stands in judgement of their defensive pre-emptive attack? Well, we try to characterize it in physical, observable behavior.

Quote:
One thing I have said over and over again, is that even if you are "defensive," the fight begins BEFORE the first punch is thrown. Somebody is often being overly agressive, loud, pointing or poking, red faced, or even calmly and quickly closing distance. These factors indicate you're in a fight, even if you haven't been hit yet.


Yeah, we got a million auditory and visual descriptors, yet none of them speaks as loudly as the intuition that makes up the hardwiring of the primitive brain. Usually what we are describing when we talk about these indicators and cues is nothing more than posturing behavior, what Rory once describe as the monkey dance. In fact, someone exhibiting these "indicators" is often doing what animals do to avoid fights. They make themselves appear larger and louder. They change colors. They call upon subtle primitive facial expressions as signs of warning. They close distance and in doing so express their territorial boundries. They set up lines for you not to cross.

We can sell this to a jury easily. These are agreed upon indicators of aggression regardless of how accurate they are. But if you really want to train and teach others to recognize true aggression you have to get in touch with intuition. Predators do not do any of those things we describe. They would not want to give their position away. When animals hunt, they try to blend in not stand out. They try to conceal themselves not appear larger. They are quiet, stealty rather than loud and threatening. They penetrate territory, striking hard, viscious and fast. Then they exit, and disappear. They do not claim territory for themselves. They violate it. They are wanderers not homesteaders.

The amazing thing is that we are all hardwired to percieve danger, recognize its imminence and respond in a blink to a primal fight and/or flight response. It is our intuition that keeps us safe and alive. Nothing more...or less. Yet intuition is dismissed as being non-scientific, and therefore a liability. It's tough to train to it because it defies proof.
So most dojo's today teach to wait for a visual attack, an apparent motive. Not on purpose mind you, but rather it is implied in the way we perform the ritualistic combat scenarios. Intuition is absent in most classical dojos and it will remain absent until we leave the dojo, its hardwood floors and secure walls which trap in the values, attitudes and norms of eighteenth century Asia .

Debecker describes it well:

"We think conscious thought is somehow better, when in fact intuition is soaring flight compared to the plodding of logic. Nature's greatest accomplishment, the human brain, is never more efficient or invested than when its host is at risk. Then, intuition is catapulted to another level entirely, a height at which it can accurately be called graceful, even miraculous. Intuition is the journey from A to Z without stopping at any other letter along the way. It is knowing without knowing why"

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RRB
Okay,who stopped payment on my reality check?


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 Post subject: Van...STOPPING POWER
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:23 am 
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WOW what a topic....

Here are some things to consider...

You can take just about ANY person to a firing range and give them a firearm and teach them to pull the trigger...EASY GROSS MOTOR SKILL TO LEARN..if fact the same motor skill used to pick your own nose....lol

Some hit the target other don't...

But the ones who hit the target does not necessarily mean in a real life encounter they will hit the bad guy...

Many people at the camp have broken boards, concrete blocks, even baseball bats.....but these same people pulled their power during some simulations...DID THEY PULL THEIR POWER OR IN FACT HAVE NO POWER?......the same power that broken these hard objects..were unable to hit someone in a protective suit that is designed for HIGH BLUNT TRAUMA......the question is WHY?...

How does a small woman weighing 100 lbs at best, lift a car up off the ground the save her child..but in another setting is unable to execute a few pull ups....WHY...?

Here are some possible answers...;

People respond in many different ways when under stress...the BIG act small and the small have become GIANTS.....WHY...?

Over time we have become very knowledgeable in this area...we have learned that in times of critical stress we act in the mid brain...gross motor skills take over....and there is a direct connection between the (physical) response or an ACT and the actually (mental) commitment needed for a real life response...

How to correct this is in training..we do this each and every day in our training...In our other Reality Check Forum we talked about a few of these.....I am hoping in time for next year Summerfest we will have address more of these factors to draw to our Seminars there....Thanks for thinking of me Van..

Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:41 am 
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Good post Dave and on target as usual.

I have touched upon similar concepts for years on end on my forum, usually triggering a TMA’s shitstorm.

The same people who ‘cried foul’ then _ are now among the missing in this conversation.

It’s like what Panther experienced once when coming under attack by a gang of punks in the Chinatown area.

All his TMA’s buddies ‘dove under the tables’ and disappeared.
:D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:09 am 
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See NEW THREAD.......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:46 am 
“Many people at the camp have broken boards, concrete blocks, even baseball bats.....but these same people pulled their power during some simulations...DID THEY PULL THEIR POWER OR IN FACT HAVE NO POWER?......the same power that broken these hard objects..were unable to hit someone in a protective suit that is designed for HIGH BLUNT TRAUMA......the question is WHY?...”

To hit people you have to hit people.

Conditioning and suits.

Back at the 1999 camp Tracy Rose had a Red Man suit and the only strike I was happy with was my elbow so I went on a journey trying to find the most power and be able to use it against suits etc.

So my conclusion is that to hit people you must train hitting people (conditioning) and you should use suit to really learn to open up under stress.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:39 pm 
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This topic is taking some interesting turns. Van noted that:

“We should put this question to him (Dave Young) as to what is needed to develop true stopping power, given the realities of who and what assailants may be.”

Roy wrote:

“Yeah, we got a million auditory and visual descriptors, yet none of them speaks as loudly as the intuition that makes up the hardwiring of the primitive brain. Usually what we are describing when we talk about these indicators and cues is nothing more than posturing behavior, what Rory once describe as the monkey dance . In fact, someone exhibiting these "indicators" is often doing what animals do to avoid fights. They make themselves appear larger and louder. They change colors. They call upon subtle primitive facial expressions as signs of warning. They close distance and in doing so express their territorial boundaries. They set up lines for you not to cross.”

Dave Young responded:

“Many people at the camp have broken boards, concrete blocks, even baseball bats.....but these same people pulled their power during some simulations...DID THEY PULL THEIR POWER OR IN FACT HAVE NO POWER?......the same power that broken these hard objects..were unable to hit someone in a protective suit that is designed for HIGH BLUNT TRAUMA......the question is WHY?...”

Rick Wilson said simply: “To hit people you have to hit people.”

So, where does that leave us? We’re all interested in finding safe, effective training methods. In pre-arranged bunkai and kumite we have an opportunity to go all out and gauge the effectiveness of movements and counters. We can deliver “real” power on strikes at an opponent. Of course, we know what’s coming so in that respect the exercise isn’t “real.” In Judo randori, we fight with full power against a resisting opponent. Of course, the encounter isn’t a surprise and there are rules, so in that respect, it isn’t “real.”

There are gaps in training that can’t be closed. As long as we are in a training situation, we know that it’s not “real,” it doesn’t matter how difficult or stressful the training. Most of us, myself included, have never had the acid test of a life threatening attack. We get mired in circular arguments over whether certain training methods are helpful or harmful. Isn’t it likely that no one training method will have similar results for all students? That is why I believe it makes sense to be open to trying new things. Everybody needs to get out of their comfort zone to try new training methods.

I’m curious if Roy or David have statistics regarding how LEOs or soldiers react to initial encounters with violence on the job? That is, what percentage failed to act at all, or acted in a manner that was counter to what their trainers intended? Do the statistics indicate that the training was a failure or that some percentage of people are going to “freeze” no matter what type of training they get?

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:07 pm 
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The only way to bridge the gap between training and reality is to make your training as close to the real thing as possible. We have had great success with this in many areas from empty hands to firearm training, less lethal to lethal...

It is a process and a procedure that has evolved from a few decades of mistakes....to where we are now...

This is one of the things we are trying to bring to you at the Summerfest....there is a way to do this...and we want to share it with you...this is why we are here....unfortunately training is something you have to experience first hand..ANYONE can talk about it but you have to do it....I look forward to training with you in the future.....

Dave...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:41 pm 
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Dave,

I read the RedMan article posted on the site. I assume that is part of the manner to bridge the gap between training and reality. It looks interesting and I hope to have the opportunity to participate some time. I'm interested in how do you deal with the fact that in the field students won't be protected by the RedMan suit. I'm also curious in what it feels like to train with that type of suit. How it affects mobility, visibility and the rest.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:06 am 
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[quote="Norm Abrahamson"]Dave,

I read the RedMan article posted on the site. I assume that is part of the manner to bridge the gap between training and reality. Yes, Norm you are correct....that and a lot more though...

I'm interested in how do you deal with the fact that in the field students won't be protected by the RedMan suit.

In order to train a person to defend and attack they need to feel the real thing..we are able to simulate these attacks with the student going full speed and power, and do this safely...that is the key word...It has nothing to do with the fact that in real life they will not be wearing the suit...it has everything to do with the fact that they will be attacked and are able to qualify their techniques.....plus with the suit being modular it is put on in levels of intensity...without using the RedMan Gear you get injuries...and I do not believe in students being injured......when this happens you lose them..and some NEVER return...

I tell student all the time.."Do not break your toys,"!


I'm also curious in what it feels like to train with that type of suit. How it affects mobility, visibility and the rest.

Norm like all things it is a trade of to a certain degree...Over the last 25 years I have used and worn every protective suit designed for this type of training and all of the sporting equipment as well....and at this time there is nothing else on the market here in the US or internationally that is better...we have over 40 years in the blunt trauma industry.

I look forward to training with you...where are you located?

Dave
[/b]


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:19 am 
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I'm in Mansfield Mass, about halfway between Boston and Providence. I had the pleasure of participating in some of your classes at the camp 2 or 3 summers ago, but no RedMan suits. I wasn't able to make the camp this past month. I would be very interested in tasting some of the training you're talking about. Like I said earlier, everybody ought to get out of their comfort zone now and again.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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 Post subject: Norm....
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:28 am 
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You know I met some great trainers up in your area you should contact.....Gary Khory, Joe Pomfet (please forgive the mispelling of his name) and a trainer called Joe...a litle guy but full of power....

Will you be coming to the Summerfest next year?

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:10 pm 
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I will probably be at Summerfest next year. This year was one of the few I missed in the last 10 or so. I'm familiar with both Joe and Gary and know them to be excellent martial artists. I've attended several seminars Joe Pomfret has done and more important that his physical ability is that he is a wonderful teacher. He explains things so even I can understand.

I'll be looking on line for some more of your articles Dave.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:50 pm 
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They are both fine instructors and good people over all. I enjoy talking with them when I get to see them.

I will look for you next year.....Have a good one Norm...

Dave


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