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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:52 pm 
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On the knife scenario thread, Roy wrote
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So here is a good glimpse into the ugliness of combat. No pre-arranged movements, no pre-arranged responses. Only a sudden primal survival reaction that leaves the attacked cut in almost every case.


This is the concept introduced by many combat specialists and is so poignantly described in Gladwell's book BLINK. It is also the theory of the Chess game that I posted on this forum. If you want to engineer a strategy you first study the innate response. You figure out what happens in the blink of an eye. You do these tests a bunch of times and come to understand what your hands do, your body does, and your mind does when suddenly and brutally attacked. Then you train to it. You see, you cannot train a first response, so you have to learn to train to the first response.

Looking at these videos you see a few episodes where these guys try to make something happen. They get lost in a technique that isn't working. They get stabbed and slashed and still they work that single technique ad nauseum.

This is what happens when we over-engineer a response in the dojo. We cloud the issue by suggesting that there is one better solution to the problem than any other. We suggest that there is one right solution and we drill it.

What we discover by testing the trained response is that the law of specificity almost always turns the fight to the favor of the assailant. In our business we have to learn how to reverse engineer our tactics. Let the BLINK factor speak for itself.

So what to do about these types of attacks as a teacher? How do you get students to prepare for them? How do you teach to survive them?


Pretty sobering, especially when we think of what we do in a dojo during a typical workout. As Roy points out _ we can do what we do, but be careful how you sell it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:38 pm 
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Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:47 am 
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AAAhmed46 wrote:
Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.


I think any training which allows you to work through adrenaline rushes can be valuable - because you learn to not panic over feeling panicked - it can happen competing in swimming or anything - public competition doesnot help you NOT be afraid, it comes to let you believe fear is okay. You WILL feel panicked - but will you panick over feeling panicked? The adrenaline dump hits, heart races and its a mistake to then start thinking "Oh my gosh , my hands are shaking...will I be okay...what if I can't deal with this?"


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:18 am 
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AAAhmed46 wrote:
Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.


But is that enough?

Take a look at the life of the great Alex Gong


And how it ended when he went toe to toe with a maggot.

Quote:
SF Gate Fender-bender hit-run turns fatal in S.F.
Kickbox champ chases down driver, winds up shot to death
- Jaxon Van Derbeken, Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writers
Saturday, August 2, 2003

A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier.

Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the driver, who apparently waited for a traffic signal to turn green before opening fire and speeding away.

Gong, who had been working out at the South of Market training gym he runs at 444 Clementina St., was wearing yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks when he was killed.

Late Friday night, police said they had identified the car believed to be the hit-and-run vehicle, a dark green 1995 Jeep Cherokee with license plate 3NAN185, and want to question the registered owner, 33-year-old Kurt Reiner of San Francisco.

"He's not a suspect at this time," said Maria Oropeza, police spokeswoman. "He's only wanted for questioning."

Police also are trying to locate his car, she said.

The slaying came one day after San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to crack down on hit-and-run driving.

The 4:30 p.m. incident began outside Gong's Fairtex gym when his car, also a Jeep Cherokee, was hit by a passing car. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.

''The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and then shot him -- point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a car on Fifth Street.

'I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT'

"The victim grabbed himself and fell backward," she said. "The driver backed up, put the car in drive and drove off. He turned right on Harrison.

"I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen nothing like that in my life," Moore said.

Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex, said members of the gym saw the initial fender-bender through an open garage door. Gong, who was inside training, took off barefoot after the man, said Lam, who grabbed a camera and followed.

"As I was running up, I see Alex arguing with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green, the guy popped him. He definitely waited for the light to turn green."

Lam said he tried to take a picture of the fleeing Cherokee, but was in a rush to help his mortally wounded friend. "I just yelled for people to help," he said.

A motorcycle officer on the way to the Hall of Justice nearby stopped, and he and Lam both attempted to resuscitate Gong.

"Last year, Alex paid for my CPR certification," Lam said. "I was giving him mouth-to-mouth, the officer was giving him chest compressions."

Lam said a single bullet struck Gong just above the heart.

"I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds after he was shot," Lam said.

S.F. RESIDENT

Gong, a resident of San Francisco, was born and raised in New England, and lived for a time in Central Asia before returning to the East Coast. He later moved to California and graduated from San Francisco State University with a degree in business.

Long interested in judo and tae kwon do, Gong discovered Muay Thai, a form of kickboxing and the national sport of Thailand, in 1994. He once said in an interview that he was drawn to the sport by the fluid movement and careful balance it requires.

He had a natural affinity for the sport and racked up an impressive array of championships in the middleweight and welterweight classes. He appeared regularly on HBO and ESPN and headlined fights at the MGM Grand and the Mirage in Las Vegas. He was a dedicated competitor who trained tirelessly, often waking at dawn to run five miles and perform scores of sit-ups, push-ups and other exercises before going to work.

Gong worked equally hard as a businessman who introduced Muay Thai to California when in 1996 he opened a San Francisco branch of Fairtex Combat Sports Camp -- founded in Bangkok in 1976. It wasn't long before the firm employed 20 instructors and included more than 600 students. It is, according to the company's Web site, the nation's top Muay Thai training facility and the only one recognized by the World Muay Thai Council, which is under the authority of the Thai government.

'AN AMAZING GUY'

Under Gong's leadership, Fairtex opened another facility in Daly City in 2000.

As Gong's body lay in the middle of Fifth Street, wrapped in a yellow tarp, and police interviewed witnesses, students gathered at Fairtex. They were stunned and spoke with admiration for Gong.

Lam said Gong was a mentor and a leader.

"Alex was an amazing guy," Lam said. "He was the owner, but he was kind of like a big brother. It was a family environment.

"He was a fighter to the end. He was arguing with this guy to get him to pull over -- all he had to do was get his plate, but he had to get into it with him," Lam said.

E-mail Michael Cabanatuan at mcabanatuan@sfchronicle.com and Jaxon Van Derbeken at jvanderbeken@sfchronicle.com.

Page A - 1
URL: URL
©2006 San Francisco Chronicle



RIP Alex. :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:03 am 
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Gong was shot from a car. He wasn't "toe to toe" with the guy.

Gong made a very bad decision, but it's questionable (at best) how much that decision was influenced by his training. My own Muay Thai coach acknowledged that what he did wasn't a great idea (to say the least).

The only system that would have saved Gong's life there was the good sense not to chase a man down the street wearing boxing gloves and thai shorts.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:06 am 
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MikeK wrote:
AAAhmed46 wrote:
Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.


But is that enough?

Take a look at the life of the great Alex Gong


And how it ended when he went toe to toe with a maggot.

Quote:
SF Gate Fender-bender hit-run turns fatal in S.F.
Kickbox champ chases down driver, winds up shot to death
- Jaxon Van Derbeken, Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writers
Saturday, August 2, 2003

A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier.

Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the driver, who apparently waited for a traffic signal to turn green before opening fire and speeding away.

Gong, who had been working out at the South of Market training gym he runs at 444 Clementina St., was wearing yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks when he was killed.

Late Friday night, police said they had identified the car believed to be the hit-and-run vehicle, a dark green 1995 Jeep Cherokee with license plate 3NAN185, and want to question the registered owner, 33-year-old Kurt Reiner of San Francisco.

"He's not a suspect at this time," said Maria Oropeza, police spokeswoman. "He's only wanted for questioning."

Police also are trying to locate his car, she said.

The slaying came one day after San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to crack down on hit-and-run driving.

The 4:30 p.m. incident began outside Gong's Fairtex gym when his car, also a Jeep Cherokee, was hit by a passing car. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.

''The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and then shot him -- point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a car on Fifth Street.

'I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT'

"The victim grabbed himself and fell backward," she said. "The driver backed up, put the car in drive and drove off. He turned right on Harrison.

"I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen nothing like that in my life," Moore said.

Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex, said members of the gym saw the initial fender-bender through an open garage door. Gong, who was inside training, took off barefoot after the man, said Lam, who grabbed a camera and followed.

"As I was running up, I see Alex arguing with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green, the guy popped him. He definitely waited for the light to turn green."

Lam said he tried to take a picture of the fleeing Cherokee, but was in a rush to help his mortally wounded friend. "I just yelled for people to help," he said.

A motorcycle officer on the way to the Hall of Justice nearby stopped, and he and Lam both attempted to resuscitate Gong.

"Last year, Alex paid for my CPR certification," Lam said. "I was giving him mouth-to-mouth, the officer was giving him chest compressions."

Lam said a single bullet struck Gong just above the heart.

"I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds after he was shot," Lam said.

S.F. RESIDENT

Gong, a resident of San Francisco, was born and raised in New England, and lived for a time in Central Asia before returning to the East Coast. He later moved to California and graduated from San Francisco State University with a degree in business.

Long interested in judo and tae kwon do, Gong discovered Muay Thai, a form of kickboxing and the national sport of Thailand, in 1994. He once said in an interview that he was drawn to the sport by the fluid movement and careful balance it requires.

He had a natural affinity for the sport and racked up an impressive array of championships in the middleweight and welterweight classes. He appeared regularly on HBO and ESPN and headlined fights at the MGM Grand and the Mirage in Las Vegas. He was a dedicated competitor who trained tirelessly, often waking at dawn to run five miles and perform scores of sit-ups, push-ups and other exercises before going to work.

Gong worked equally hard as a businessman who introduced Muay Thai to California when in 1996 he opened a San Francisco branch of Fairtex Combat Sports Camp -- founded in Bangkok in 1976. It wasn't long before the firm employed 20 instructors and included more than 600 students. It is, according to the company's Web site, the nation's top Muay Thai training facility and the only one recognized by the World Muay Thai Council, which is under the authority of the Thai government.

'AN AMAZING GUY'

Under Gong's leadership, Fairtex opened another facility in Daly City in 2000.

As Gong's body lay in the middle of Fifth Street, wrapped in a yellow tarp, and police interviewed witnesses, students gathered at Fairtex. They were stunned and spoke with admiration for Gong.

Lam said Gong was a mentor and a leader.

"Alex was an amazing guy," Lam said. "He was the owner, but he was kind of like a big brother. It was a family environment.

"He was a fighter to the end. He was arguing with this guy to get him to pull over -- all he had to do was get his plate, but he had to get into it with him," Lam said.

E-mail Michael Cabanatuan at mcabanatuan@sfchronicle.com and Jaxon Van Derbeken at jvanderbeken@sfchronicle.com.

Page A - 1
URL: URL
©2006 San Francisco Chronicle



RIP Alex. :cry:


But how else will you simulate a self defence situation other than sparring and drills?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:46 am 
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Jake Steinmann wrote:
Gong was shot from a car. He wasn't "toe to toe" with the guy.

Gong made a very bad decision, but it's questionable (at best) how much that decision was influenced by his training. My own Muay Thai coach acknowledged that what he did wasn't a great idea (to say the least).

The only system that would have saved Gong's life there was the good sense not to chase a man down the street wearing boxing gloves and thai shorts.


Exactly Jake.

Toe to toe wasn't meant to have been literal, but rather that he confronted someone directly. My bad and I'm sorry if that was misleading.

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Last edited by MikeK on Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:51 am 
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But how else will you simulate a self defence situation other than sparring and drills?

Maybe we can't. I like what Rory said about things being what they are. A simulation is still just a simulation. My instructor will do all sorts of tricks to me but I still know that when I'm there that they can happen at anytime so there is still something missing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:23 am 
theres lots of alternative drills , protective suits , some go as far too create specific envorments , how about some sensory disturbances weve heard of strobe lights darkness noise etc being used on Vans forum .

but these questions would I guess be were the reality type folks explore .

doesnt make it real , but is appraoching making it as real as possible , making folks uncomfortable , exploring limitations not on physically but emotionally .

that perhaps is what reality training is about rather than being more real per say .

addressing weapons , tactics , multiples , tools .

Self defence realities , Mushin perhaps .

I do see sparring as a usefull component .


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 Post subject: 8 Levels of Simulation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:58 am 
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"When does training stop becoming training and begin to enter the reality"?

We have idetified with 8 stages of training a student needs to go through......

"When does training stop becoming training and begin to enter the reality"?

We have identified with 8 stages of training a student needs to go through......

1. Shadow Training - This starts the picture drawing in the minds of a student. Initiating the gross motor skills....going through motions...This allows for maximum repetition with a quick recovery time.

2. Prop Training - This builds on the picture drawing in the minds of a student. Fine tuning the gross motor skills....going through motions with your tools...This allows the student the ability to go through their own awkward stages in the learning process.

3. Partner Training - This builds on the canvass in the minds of a student adding the foundation. Learning levels of positioning...This allows the student the ability to enter their own comfort zone.

4. Movement Training - This builds on the FIRST stages of their actions and techniques being real. Static and building up to Dynamic Movement..showing the student the continuous and flow of application + Resistance = Force concept positioning...This allows the student the ability to work through comfort zone.

5. Environmental Training - This builds on the SECOND and CRITICAL stages of their encounters being real. Highlighting the dangers in each environment
showing the student the need to adapting to their situation and environment...This allows the student the ability to work through enter the comfort zone.

6. Low Level Simulations (Dynamic application of a single motor skills when the student has pre-knowledge of using NON-functional Training Props ONLY) - This builds on the last and final stages of Adult Learning and the first time the student is introduced to STRESS Inoculation..adding technique to dynamic movement..MANY mistakes are made during this point because this is when the student STARTS to build their level of proficiency.

7. High Level Simulations(Dynamic application of learned motor skills when the student has NO pre-knowledge of using functional Training Props ONLY) - This builds on the adds REINFORCING these techniques in Long Term Memory, enabling them to recall then under stress...when mistakes are made during this point the student is experienced enough to make the corrections on their own, and often even during application.

8. Live Confrontation Simulations (Dynamic application of trained technique to application of tactics when the student has NO CUE or pre-knowledge of using LIVE functional Props or live weapons)- without this stage of training students often forget or fail to apply critical parts of a technique to tactic....

We never pass a student to an Master Instructor Trainer level without completing these stages of training. We have fond this teaching strategies to be very helpful and live saving for us....Thanks

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:15 am 
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So far, everyone has been focussed on external stimuli.

Which can never be congruent with unknown reality.

What about internal energy? :lol:

How do you learn to kill? :lol:

How do you train someone to be able to kill, in order to save lives? :lol:

Can it be trained, or not?

Should it be trained? What is the difference between military, law enforcement and self defense?

What if you practice something, and you never get the chance to use it? :?

WTF?

:?

Is Uechi ryu the art of killing? :roll:

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :?

Splortsplorturrrrgggggaaaaaaaagooooooooooooduludur.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Dave,
Generally how long does it take to go through all 8 stages and how far does the average person you train get?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:21 pm 
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And so Roy asks
Quote:
So what to do about these types of attacks as a teacher? How do you get students to prepare for them? How do you teach to survive them?


Many reading this thread will uncomfortable. They like to believe that they are prepared for self defense in the ‘average’ street attack [whatever this means] by their routine dojo TMA practice. Many believe that the ‘preparation’ goes to any attack _

They also feel that to delve so deeply into this ‘self defense’ is a detriment to their daily peace of mind and conducive to emotional disturbance.

This has been the view of the forums in the past, Dave. What is your opinion on this?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:26 pm 
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Are there any stats on how often a criminal/assailant is in a chemically altered state? To what extent does this diminish the effectiveness of counterattacks, trying to go from relaxed after dinner to protecting your life in .5 second? Last year someone gave me pepper spray because I never bought it for myself. My concerns were both effectiveness of the spray on someone intent on violence but also position in a real altercation. I would think an assailant would aggress in a way that I wouldn't have time or angle to spray him.


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 Post subject: WTF?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:01 pm 
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[quote="fivedragons"]So far, everyone has been focussed on external stimuli.

Which can never be congruent with unknown reality. [b]True but then again we have history and a few hundred years to put the puzzle together don't you think? Training for the unexpected today to be prepared for your opponent tomorrow meant train for the world you live in...not the one you dream about!

What about internal energy? :lol: Definitions is the key.....We have grown to believe that internal engery starts with the inner will of a person...confidence and courage..
How do you learn to kill? :lol:

How do you train someone to be able to kill, in order to save lives? :lol: We have done this for years, decades even centuries...First lets look at the term Kill...this is defined as the termination of a life or ending the existence of another - forget about the civil and criminal implications...

We as a society have accepted killing when done to protect your life or the life of another..we are not talking about greed, envy, jealousy or revenge being a spontaneous act or even at certain times even a pre-planned act or response.

We have learned that KILLING a person is not a born trait however this killing instinct can be breed over a period of time.....changing the thought patterns of another takes time to nurture and mold.....Look at the abused or beaten dog from it's owner....every day what they see is controlled, or what they hear, without reason or notice they are kicked, beaten, choked, slapped, whipped, denied food and water..when they slash back the dog is rewarded with food and water and at times even the necessary oxygen to live...this start a change of events in what some people have referred to as "programming"....(does it sound the making of a serial killer too!) Many kings, and czars and other historical leaders in the past have used this concept on others...of course they changed the phases and stages of their programming with more advance technology, medication, and soul winning methods.


Can it be trained, or not? The Killing instinct is a trained response and at certian times basic and primitive.

Should it be trained? What is the difference between military, law enforcement and self defense? In this area I believe we are dealing with nothing more then semantics..[b]Being a former Marine, we have a focused group of recruits who have all of the basic tools to allow this training to take place...A young mind and body, a strong understanding about God and County, and the will to be committed to a cause. This cause is basic....to protect the lives and property of your people.

Law Enforcement takes the same elements, even though the quality of the recruit may greatly vary they have a focused group of recruits who have all of the basic tools to allow this training to be accepted and to take place...A willing mind and body, a strong understanding about Life and Death, and the will to be committed to a cause. This cause is basic....to protect the lives and property of your people.

Self-Defense - Again we have a focused group of people from various ages...some to young to understand some of the concepts of a warrior or solider. However this a focused group of people who have SOME OR ALL of the basic tools to allow this training to be accepted and to take place...A willing mind and body, a strong understanding about Life and Death, and the will to be committed to a cause. This cause is basic....to protect THEIR LIFE and property of THEIR OWN people.[/b]

What if you practice something, and you never get the chance to use it? :? Well if you knew for a fact that you would never be attacked, threatened or have to defend yourself to protect your life or the lives of your loved ones...they hey .....why train...kind of like the trainers or the martial artists who train for something that will never happen...but again....what could or would happen is more practical then what will never or may not ever happen...wouldn't you agree?

These are my responses to your questions, hope they answered them. Forgive any typos...I am tired...Have a good weekend.....Dave


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