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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:12 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA
CJG: Here is some info my company uses in SD classes:

Quote:
Criminal Attack Fact Sheet
2/3 of violent attacks occur in darkness or dim light.
Almost 3/4 of predatory criminal attackers are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or both.
On average, a violent encounter lasts 3 seconds from the first assault clue to the end of the violent contact.
97% of violent attacks take place within 21 feet. 75% happen within 9 feet, and 50% are at arms length.
In almost half of these events, your attacker has a partner.


I believe this was derived form data available at the US Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Regarding OC - pepper spray - courtesy of the USMC I have had the fun of an OC trainng course that included a full face spray. Very unpleasant but we were shown that if determined it will not prevent us from our course of action.

Image

Here is a pic of my classmate Sean about 30 minutes after the spray. Sean suffered horribly but it did not affect him for a couple of minutes. He was fully functional and fighting hard when it had this effect.

Image

This was 50,000 scoville heat unit spray, typical of what the Marines use and my local LEOs. What you will find in MACE is around 10,000 units in a blend with CN tear gas. MACE is ok but does not pack the same punch as higher concentrations of OC.

Bill Glasheen asked to get some experience in OC so back in 10/04 he was the demo for a self defense class. Bill performed very well with an eyefull and the effects are on in the archives for his forum. I suggest you go there and read the October 2004 thread.

I do not have the extensive background Dave has but I do work in this area teaching civlians the proper use of lethal force. #1 is to remember you are allowed to use a proportional amount of force, lethal if necessary, to prevent death or serious bodily harm to innocent human life. The laws read differntly from state to state but in VA killing is not an option. You use the amount of force necessary to stop the threat. Period. If that requires two or more .45 bullets to the center of mass of the perp so be it.

I am also well versed in the USMC 'force continuum' and at the high end of threat levels it does not deal with stopping the threat... more like ending it permanently. As a civilian, if you apply the appropriate level of force to stop a threat and it manages to run away you must allow that to happen as the threat has ended. Fine line yes, but you will have to convince the legal system you did the right thing.

I submit that as a civilian you do not train to kill. You train to stop the threat with the level of force required using your available tools.

Rich

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:43 am 
“Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.”

Sorry Adam but you missed the distinction Rory made that is very valid.

Yes the MMA fighters are under an adrenaline dump but it is a prolonged one and one they are very used to. An ambush sets of a different and immediate flooding dump. Not saying the training does not help I am just saying the adrenaline dump is not the same.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:52 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Rick Wilson wrote:
“Though sport fighters fight under controlled pressure, and thier adrenaline isnt pumping as intensly as an ambush, we should keep in mind that they are probably more familiar with with pressure in general then alot of martial artists.”

Sorry Adam but you missed the distinction Rory made that is very valid.

Yes the MMA fighters are under an adrenaline dump but it is a prolonged one and one they are very used to. An ambush sets of a different and immediate flooding dump. Not saying the training does not help I am just saying the adrenaline dump is not the same.



I said they were better at dealing with pressure then alot of martial artsists,

I didnt say the pressure they worked with was the same or of the same intensity. :wink:

And i know thier instincts are wired for beating a single skilled unarmed opponent with no buddies, hence that guy at my gym(Well at that time) who got messed up.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:59 pm 
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The student was being sprayed with an aerosol bottle..What OC was being sprayed with?..It appears in the picture that is could have been diluted some? Was it mixed with water?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:49 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Hello Dave. Yes, that student (yours truly) was being sprayed with a diluted version before training that day just to make life interesting. They buy OC in what looks like 1/4 kegs and dilute it for the large volume needed for field exercises. It is sprayed on all contact sufaces of Marines and equipment to be sure everyone gets a good taste. That picture was taken in April 2004.

The product used in the full OC training certification day (May 2004) was Defense Technology with a .18% capsaicinoid content... that is roughly 50,000 SHUs. The Marines that trained us had to get a blast of 200,000 SCU OC. We were offered 200,000 but passed on that.

After the spray we had to fight thru 5 gruops of Marines over a 50 yard hilly terrain course to get to the water hose. An excellent drill. The last Marine in the gauntlet tried to take your M9 and if he got it you were threatened with a rerun. Good motivation.

More later... I'm heading out to run a range for a group from Quantico.

Rich

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:42 pm 
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You see, the problem I have is that I don't identify myself with sports, Leo, or military. I practice karate, and I'm not any of those.

You have someone "attack" me in a protective suit and I'm going to react in a way that is congruent with the possibilities inherent in such a situation. You have created a situation where my ability to forcibly move body mass is the litmus test to my survivability.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't have anything to do with what I train for. :lol:

Talk about reality, I've never heard of someone being assaulted by someone in a superhero outfit.

The really funny thing is that I could still use the attacker's "armor" against him and cause insurmountable injury, but that wouldn't be fair.

Dave, it is very topical that you bring up the fact that you are a "former" (once and always :wink: ) marine. One of my teachers was also a marine, and taught me things that where more "effective" than anything he learned in the marines. Of course this is just his viewpoint.

My stepfather is a former marine, and I think I know a hell of alot more about hand to hand combat than he does.

It's amazing when I think of all the crazy damaged people I have met, and the only thing that remains constant is the fact that they have all learned different things, and survived, if you call what they live through as survival.

IMNSHO, anyone that tries to reduce survival to a "easily learned formula, all you have to know is the secret", is basically full of #####.

Jesus Christ I know some people who have been through more ##### than any self defense teacher alive. You would think that they would have the "answer". They have the answer, but it isn't something that they can teach to anyone. As a matter of fact, they don't want to teach it to anyone. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Super Hero Outfit...lol
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:39 am 
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It amazes me on the thinking that some of the practioners have..especially when they start out with I have never been in LEO, in the military, but my parents are or I know someone who was or is......and I guess I am thinking never even in a fight for their life.....but yet still have an opinion in an area they have little knowledge of.......hey I guess the saying is true.......uh...everyone does have an opinion....lol

I think you missed the boat on what we were talking about fivedragons......but since we are not reading from the same page, it makes it hard to explain the book to you...BUT THANK you for your opinion and comments...this is what the forums are for...

And hey..if you are ever attacked by a person in a super hero suit....when your done defending him take a picture for me......and good luck....

Dave


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:51 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Ive never been in a fight in my life, and have never really had to defend myself.


So i admit, all of you, have a HELL of alot more experience then i do.

But are my questions legitamate?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:30 am 
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and welcome....this forum was to address some questions others may have on training for the reality....nothing more...I told George I would give this a second try and so far for the most part the comments and questions are great...As there is no question or answer that is right or wrong.....some can be better formulated at times...

Training professionals is my career...I train other professionals throughout the world...mainly police, corrections, military (All NATO countries), security and a few select private civilian groups......I am also blessed to have some of the finest group of adjuncts in the world to work with..our classes are focused to instructors and staff.

So our material has to be on the cutting edge (which means up to date and the most current). We have found that what we did last year should be done differently, so we make the change and evaluate it later....it is a continous evolution..

The decisions a person has to make to save their lives needs to be made at times without a shot at the title a second time...using equipment, training props, scenario development, technology changes very quickly and if used correctly can help a person protect themselves better and respond more effectively.....

So, please keep your questions and comments coming...

Dave


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:53 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
My stepfather is a former marine, and I think I know a hell of alot more about hand to hand combat than he does.


This is very possible. Over the years the Marines forgot some of the lessons of WW2 and Korea. None the less, they were a superior fighting force as every Marine is a rifleman first. Also, Marines involved in security forces, such as Embassy Guards, received serious training.

In 1999 then Commandant Jones created the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program and incorporated the best parts of Okinawan Karate, Filipino MA, Jui Jitsu etc. Now all Marines must train in the program and all are encouraged to grow in the program.

One of the toughest schools in the Corps is the 7 week MA Intructor/trainer course. It includes the OC training and that is considered an easy day!

One of my favorite recruiting posters:

Image


Now every Marine is a rifleman and a martial artist.

Rich

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:08 am 
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RACastanet wrote:
CJG: Here is some info my company uses in SD classes:

Quote:
Criminal Attack Fact Sheet
2/3 of violent attacks occur in darkness or dim light.
Almost 3/4 of predatory criminal attackers are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or both.
On average, a violent encounter lasts 3 seconds from the first assault clue to the end of the violent contact.
97% of violent attacks take place within 21 feet. 75% happen within 9 feet, and 50% are at arms length.
In almost half of these events, your attacker has a partner.


Rich, this is exactly the info I was looking for, thanks. I was hoping to be wrong about the use of drugs but it's better to know the reality. More disturbing though is the partner stat. I've reconfirmed the ineffectiveness of pepper spray but now I'm thinking about the gun drills we ran through at camp. Dave/Roy, is defending yourself against multiple opponents with a gun in your level 2 class? Is that when it changes to hand-to-hand? And the question I shouldn't be asking online but since we're all about learning: which martial art - aikido/uechi/tai kwan do/ etc practices the most effective techniques that you draw from when training to fight multiple opponents?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:33 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
I've reconfirmed the ineffectiveness of pepper spray


If you ever get sprayed you will change your mind. Just understand its place in the force continuum. It does not replace a firearm but has some use. If you spray someone just remember you better be moving away quickly to give it time to have an effect.

Rich.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:20 am 
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delete


Last edited by fivedragons on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:29 am 
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FD: Your response is innapropriate. If you want to be a troll please do so elsewhere. There is much to be learned from this forum. Show some respect to Dave and our host George Mattson sensei. If I were the moderator you would be gone from this site.


Rich

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:36 am 
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Rich, thank you, I don't want to be a troll.


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