Reality CHECK!!!!!!!What is the Definition of Reality....

[fivedragons]

Actually, I want to be trained by the marines and the special forces. I want to be an ex-sniper and a navy seal. I want to be able to go anywhere without having to worry about the threat of violence. I want to be James Bond. I want to be able to get high off of pepper spray. I want to be able to wreak havoc without repercussions. I want to be a hired gun. I want to inspire fear in everyone I meet. I want to have sex with every woman I come across. I want to have the biggest dick on the block. I want to have the cutest supermodel available. I want to drive the bitchenest car, I want to be god.

But I don't want to be a troll.

[fivedragons]

And also, Rich, Dave made fun of my questions, before I ever typed an inapropriate response. What, am I supposed to come on here and talk about my experiences in Korea, before I pose a question? Have you ever been in a war, sir?

[fivedragons]

By the way Dave, thank you very much for your well thought out replies to my other post. I'm sorry if I caused anyone distress, but I just figured that anyone accustomed to hand to hand combat wouldn't be upset by some idiot posting a bunch of ignorant questions on a martial arts forum.

[David Talley]

I'm not a cop, a marine, or whatever

Nobody is perfect! Don't be jealous....


I think you should change your screen name to onebigdumbass.

You're a couple dragons short of a flock.

I want to have sex with every woman I come across

good luck with that

I want to have the biggest dick on the block.

Would you settle for BEING the biggest dick on the block?

But I don't want to be a troll.

Yeah about that, too late!!!

Are you going to be there when some m-f gets in my face over some made up slight , and tries to perpetrate a violent crime on me and my loved ones?

Can you do it?

Sorry, Dave, I don't want to drive you off. Sorry I'm a student of martial arts. Sorry I wasn't there at Iwo Jima, or when a bunch of marines got blown up in Beruit. Sorry my world doesn't match up with yours.

I'm just a civilian, and I thought the wholel purpose of this forum was to ask questions.

Just to let you know, You super knowledgable kung fu master, I have been practicing martial arts for years, and now I'm getting to the point where I don't know why. I'm not a cop, a marine, or whatever.

You might laugh at my observations, but then again you haven't lived my life.

You're funny. Have you been drinking? I hope you don't get blasted out of here too soon.



I guess I should apoligize to the other posters on this forum but I couldn't let that go. Someone here needs a timeout. I think he knows who he is. Anyway, sorry for a post that is juvenile, petty and contains absolutly no intellectual value. I also understand that Dave doesn't need anyone to stick up for him but he was kinda pokeing at everyone that leaves the house and does martial work

[RA Miller]

David-

Thanks for resurrecting at least some of 5D's deleted posts. There is a lesson there, one that a lot of people could spend some time thinking about.

It's really a debating trick, but some people get fooled by the "equivalency of sources" ploy. This is to argue that it is in some way unfair to consider that what I've learned in the jail or Rich has learned from the Marines as being more valid or a better source than what someone else learned from folklore or a comic book.

For some people, this is genuine, not a ploy. They build up a belief system about what they were taught and believe it whole-heartedly. When it gets challenged, the dumb ones just ignore the challenge and put their heads in the sands. The smarter ones, though, like our friend 5D, feel their world shifting around them and have to attack the source. It's a defensive reaction.

With any martial art, we can dress it up any way we want but in the end we are learning how to break heads. We can tack on a philosophical system or pretend that we are doing it for fitness, but if either of those was the real goal, we all know there are more efficient and safer ways to do it.

But there are teachers who have broken heads and teachers who haven't. When they disagree, the student who has built up his world view around one of the teachings has to decide who to listen to. If his world-view is too valuable to change, he must come up with a reason NOT to listen to something he knows has high validity... and he attacks the source.

Rory

[Dave Young]

thanks David and Rich...

David,
Always a pleasure to see you on here or the other places we frequent..Hope you have been well....No fun was meant in my responses, I am sorry they were taken as such...but then again when you write things down on a forum or any place else you can always be misinterpreted.

So lets get on track on our current discussion.

As NO ONE ANYWHERE can say there is ONE WAY of doing things in our business or in the arts..(ALOT TRY)....but we can only share in the different ways we all follow our path...THIS ENTICES GROWTH AND LEARNING..and this forum is used as a means for that...as well as this THREAD.

For some the arts is a way of expressing themselves, finding discipline, staying in shape, physical fitness, leaving their normal routine life and pursuing adventure, learning ways of saving their life, measuring ones own stamina, expanding their own intellect...etc.....

For some it is a way of life, a career with life experiences and research to help support specific topics, and the start of inner growing which never truly ends....etc...

For others a short path of filling the curious mind, or the mere connection with others of a common bond or goal.

We either fit into two categories....it is either personal opinion..which is just that.....your opinion..or professional fact...supported with concrete facts...

So we I mentioned before all comments are welcome. And there are no rules per say..(people will ALWAYS act differently on line then in public...if you feel you need a time out.....go stand in corner start your timer and count to 100 then regroup and return with a different approach...

I think I heard someone mention OC.....it is a very effective tool.....however some people chance the SHU when they need to look at the capsaicinzoids content which give you the true pungency of the spray being used...5-10% will not do it and it is very misleading. Since Jan 1989 one year before OC was brought into the LE market I have been contaminated with almost everything sold in the US market and Internationally..some that state 10 million SHU's...some where very unsafe..

At this time it is the only less lethal tool that has not killed anyone....and with 16 years of research and fact supporting that makes it a good choice in certain situations..the jury is still out on the use of the TASER.....

Dave

[RA Miller]

My experience with OC has been far less positive. I've used it (or cleaned up after it) dozens of times. In general, it will make a threat close his eyes and it's always easier to take a threat down who can't see. Rarely, in my experience, do you get compliance (caveat- FWIW, I don't usually get called down for the easy ones, so there is some non-random selection in this sample). I can think of maybe three times where OC was deployed and the threats just gave up.

There have also been twice (maybe three times) where the threat didn't even shut his eyes- both were full blown "excited delirium" and one (who later said it was PCP) had two shanks. The only effect of the OC was to make him slippery.

Taser I've only personally used twice- once was excited delerium. In both cases it worked. The excited delerium subject did not have any of the expected "pain compliance" effects in that he was not willing to comply to avoid another cycle. However, while the taser was cycling he couldn't move, which allowed us to get in with restraints.

The big advantage of OC is that it is an "area effect" tool and can gas up an entire housing unit, whereas Taser can only affect one person (theoretically, if two people were fighting and you got a probe in each one...)

Rory

[RACastanet]

Here is a photo from about two years ago of a squad after the full facial OC spray. Some suffered terribly, especially the fair skinned Marine in the forground. The hispanic next to him was struggling to get one eye open. The black men in the group had varying results. A couple looked mostly unaffected but the one on the end in the second row was in bad shape. Check out his eyes.



The Gunny applying the spray was practiced and pretty consistant and we all got a good shot. My left eye took a direct hit and was pretty much swelled closed even after an hour.

It was a hot and sunny day with little breeze so it took about 2 hours before we were cleared to leave. A few Marines were kept under observation much longer and one was not allowed to leave - it was Friday - so his weekend was shot.

Any comments on the group Dave? Rory? Roy?

Rich

[CJG]

Guys, thanks for addressing my OC inquiry, I appreciate the real world feedback. I guess my concern was more as a person walking alone in a secluded area. Rory, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you walked into a situation knowing you had to control someone and knowing the spray would be used. Even then, the guy on PCP was not as easily effected. This to me is different from someone being jumped unexpectedly from a weird angle. Putting Rich's stats together with your story, we end up with almost 75% of the time a civilian would use a weaker version of OC on a drugged up assailant and possibly his friend who may not be slowed down by the stuff.

Is this where gun class level 2 comes in?

[Dave Young]

There are many reasons for the negative effects of the OC on you Marines. We have found a 2 main reasons for this.

1. Unsafe OC from the company...quality control is not as good as it should be, many OC companies have a strong inconsistencies between one batch and another, only a few companies take the time to make sure what they send out is safe, and others...well they are trying to sell product...

2. The Decontamination procedures used combined with personal reactions. Over the last 16 years we have refined our decon procedures and have been very successful...but then again there are always a few who need a little extra love at times.

I am amazed that people still use buckets of water and the wrong decontamination methods...ther eis alot of information on OC...my first manual was only 50 pages...now it is over 200...

Dave

[RACastanet]

a civilian would use a weaker version of OC

The brand Sabre Red is available in most states and is 200,000 SHUs. That would peg almost anyones pain meter.

The decontamination procedure was minimal. Pretty much a hose in the eyes. They kept us on deck for about 2 hours before anyone could leave and only after a quick check of the eyes. Earlier we had been advised to bring baby shampoo and Ivory soap to shower with. Also told us to leave our underwear on in the shower!

The remedy for most was to just find some shade, a breeze, and wait for the effects to pass. Sunglasses really helped afterward as well.

But as bad a some of us looked and felt we all passed the fighting test with spray in our faces.

Since I now know what to expect if anyone sprayed me with OC I'd make them eat it. If you maintain your determination you can overcome the discomfort. There was a perp in the area last year that sprayed people at ATM machines as their money was coming out. Boy would I have fun with that nutcase.

Rich

[Dave Young]

We conduct the training and certifications for SABRE..and your right on the SHU...but the most important is the 1.33 of the capsiacinzoids...that is the key....

I remember when it took two hours.....we have it down to less them 5 minutes with a full hit in the face...I can remember the old days when it took hours, large quanities of water, air and a great sense of humor......the humor always helps!...

As long as the person using using the OC understands it effects and limitations it can be a great tool and has for thousands of officers across the world.....but it is just that a force option.....

I just did an instuctor course on the OC a few weeks ago and you will have a variety of effects on people....

PS...yes I remember hearing something a while back in N/VA on the ATM incident if it is the same one...they had one in CA a few years back too.........it is funny how people view weapons and their effectiveness.....I always enjoy their opinions....

Dave

[hthom]

a civilian would use a weaker version of OC

The brand Sabre Red is available in most states and is 200,000 SHUs. That would peg almost anyones pain meter.
[/quote}

Rich,

How are you? It's been a while. Missed you in the recent Camps.

Question: I read from an OC spray ad that "2% 5,300,000SHU is what you need for the job (effective self defense)". Why is the big difference in numbers? Is there a trick in calculating this (eg: 200,000 vs 2%5,300,000SHU). Thanks.

Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com

[Dave Young]

Henry,

SHU's have NOTHING to do with the pudgency of OC. Civilian brands and LE brands are different but if I was to spray you with one then later on during the week spray you with another without letting you know which one was which. You could not tell me. I have done this test on 5 different occasions.

I have been researching and developing training programs for OC aerosols since 1990 when OC was approved by the Firearms Training Units of the FBI in 1990 for it's law enforcement division, which was when they first entered our industry. The manufactures use the SHU as a number crunch to mislead the market, and in many ways it works. This is a good example of it. I blame the industry on the misleading of information and lack of trainnig their people who will be using the OC. I mean which sounds hotter 1 or 5.3 million SHU?

The capsiacinzoids are usually as little as 0.8 to 1.43. SABRE aerosols are usually with a consistancy of 1.33 in their SABRE Red. We conduct the certification for SABRE so I am confident this number is correct. Hope this helps Henry,

Dave

[hthom]

Henry,

The capsiacinzoids are usually as little as 0.8 to 1.43. SABRE aerosols are usually with a consistancy of 1.33 in their SABRE Red.

Dave,

Thank you--- but now I am still confused (and I have been recommending the stuff to my female clients ).

Yes, I understand that the percentage of OC (usually 1 to 10%) has little to do with how effective the spray is.

I also read that "pure capsaicin is around 15 million SHU", and 2% 5,300,000 SHU is needed for effectiveness--- (this itself is confusing to me. 2% OC? 2% of 15 million? 2% of 5,300,000?).

I also read that a lot of police dept's don't want to use 10% 2,000,000 SHU because it's too strong.

I just googled Sabre Red and the site mentions 10% OC, 2,000,000 SHU in the product.

On top of all that, you used the term "capsiacinzoid" to describe OC unit instead of SHU.

----- So, for someone who doesn't want to get too detailed in this whole thing, what numbers do I look for on the spray cans to ensure effectiveness when I purchase OC spray?

Henry
www.selfdefense-lessons.com