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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:25 am 
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Van wrote:
"And I hope, Mike, that you don’t do as many emotionally high-jacked seniors are famous for _ continue to miss the points of these discussions, especially on my forum.

The goal, at least for my students, should be that a TMA student comes up on top close to 100% in every defensive situation. And this is achieved with the blend of ‘something old_ something new’ _ evolution is not the enemy, obduracy is. "

Van, I am not so naive as to think that all TMA's are capable or have the skill to sucessfully defend themselves in a street fight. Nor am I so pessimistic about traditional training that I feel it is a worthless endeavor. My point (which does seem to be missed) is that TMA can work so long as the teacher and the student have knowledge, the inclination and desire to train, as necessary, to make it work.

Van wrote:
"Take the average TMA bloke, he couldn’t hit with enough stopping power to save his ass, and David Young demonstrated this at camp. "

Well, I have seen (and I am sure that you have also seen), average Joes demonstrate enough power to break various and multiple layers of inanimate objects. If such an average Joe can break through two or three concrete bricks, is that not enough power to stop someone if struck in the throat, solar plexus or unprotected and unconditiioned floating ribs or the kidneys?


Van wrote:
"Obviously more is needed, something that falls within the purview of specialists."

My question is whether the traditional techniques of the forms are lacking or whether the teacher/student is lacking?
My view is that the problem lies with the latter not the former.

Dave wrote:
"since you asked from my comments and opinion surviving a real life encounter is only a small part of the big picture as a whole. IF this was the case by itself then we would not need any other skills to help us in this area of personal surival.

Dave, isn't the point of self defense is to successfully defend oneself without incurring any damage to oneself?

Isn't this the point that Van is trying to drill home?


Dave wrote:

"Does a skilled person being confronted by a non skilled person and wins the fight..does it validate his skills, and if so then to what level?"

In my humble opinion, yes, the winner has validated his skills to the point where he/she has sucessfuly defended himself/herself without incurring any major harm. BTW, those skills learned from TMA may be more than just physical technique.

Does the average ruffian have hours of training throughout decades of effort? They may have attacked folks on numerous occassions but that is not the same as hours and hours of effort honing striking and grappling techniques aganst skilled opponents. Do they have some street smarts and have they learned some tircks to distract or overwhelm an opponent? Yes

Do they have the awareness level and intellectual depth of a trained fighter. Maybe or maybe not. More likely they have some brute strength or some tricks learned through associates without a very clear understanding of the mechanics of fighting. For example, would they know how to "take power from the earth" (i.e. kinetic linking)? Could they demonstrate a strike faster than the blink of an eye? (Probably not as they have not practiced this type of lightning fast striking for lengthy periods of time). Would they be able to disable an opponent with a targeted nerve strike? Would they know which nerves to strike? Would they know how to obtain maximum leverage for a joint lock or how to escape a joint lock? THe answer to all of these questions is most likely to be no, unless the ruffian(s) trained in a TMA.

Do the ruffians engage in body conditiiong ala Uechi, Goju or Isshin? NO. This being the case would they be able to withstand a determined and powerful attack from a trained and skilled Uechi-ka, Goju-ka or Isshin-ka without suffering major damage?



Dave wrote:

"If a skills person fighitng another skilled person and wins does it mean that the skill level of the person who won is better or is the style he trains in better, or is it the lack of skill from the person fighting him?"

Well, Dave, winning is not the be-all and end-all but it sures beats losing and IMO you either win or lose to the man, not to the style. The win might be based on psychological issues or a whole bunch of other variables aside from technique or skill learned through TMA training.


Dave wrote:

" real world people we are confronted with will not wear a shirt or posted sign telling us there skill or style until after it is over"

Your comment is well taken but in your own life are you not able to pick out those who present less of a threat than others? As you are well aware, TMA trains awareness as well as skill. Again, are the ruffians usually so intelligent as to disguise their true intent and skill level?


"there needs to be change, enhancement and growth on all catagories of skills, intensity levels and building experience"

So back to my question, if a student is lacking self-defense skills should he/she not go back to the roots of TMA and train harder and delve into a fuller understanding of the techniques handed down through the forms? Does not TMA, when taught and practiced appropriately, develop the skills and intensity levels that you mention?

If not, then why has TMA transcended the ages and proven itself time and time again in real-life encounters (caveat to Van, when the student has been trained and taught appropriately)?

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SPECIAL


Dave wrote:

" But did you see where it was the boxer with the punch who generated more power with his hands then ANY martial artist"

True, but the MA's also demonstrated enough power to simulate a car crash.

"....and it was the Muay Tai fighter who knees and kicks were the quickest and strongest of all martial artist they tested..."

True, but the power generated by the other MA's were also very damaging just not to the level achieved by the Muay Thai fighter.

Dave, did you note that the Chinese MA had faster hands than anyone else due to his training or that the ninjutsu practitioner had far better balance than any of the others, due to his traditional training? Wouldn't you agree that speed and balance would play a significant factor in a self-defense scenario?


Dave, my issue is with those who disparage TMA as a worthless endeavour without understanding the techniques and without having ever mastered those same techniques. Mastery is about body mechanics, mental and muscular control. Fighting and self-defense obviously encompasses far more and TMA offers students the opportunity to develop the necesary skills, if the student is willing to train to the appropriate level and if the teacher has the knowledge to transmit the information to the student. That knowledge is contained in the forms and the wisdom that has been passed from generation to generation (albeit not to everyone who calls him/herself an instructor)

All the best,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:35 am 
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if the student is willing to train to the appropriate level and if the teacher has the knowledge to transmit the information to the student. That knowledge is contained in the forms and the wisdom that has been passed from generation to generation (albeit not to everyone who calls him/herself an instructor)


thats a hell of a lot of If`s Mike :? , what if one of those if`s falls down ....

Isnt asking questions a good thing , wont confronting reality be a usefull tool for both the lucky few with good instruction , and even more so the unlucky lot who dont .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
My point (which does seem to be missed) is that TMA can work so long as the teacher and the student have knowledge, the inclination and desire to train, as necessary, to make it work.


Very true, and ‘make work’ should encompass all that is out there to make it work better as an adjunct to TMA.

Quote:
If such an average Joe can break through two or three concrete bricks, is that not enough power to stop someone if struck in the throat, solar plexus or unprotected and unconditioned floating ribs or the kidneys?


The average Joe cannot do the breaking you refer to, Mike.
Take a look at the average karate student in a class.

Also Dave Young demonstrated at summer camp, one on one, that hitting a real person as opposed to bricks is a horse of a different color. Pretty embarrassing to find oneself coming up short. Yet with Dave’s ‘cross training’ things improve rapidly in the ‘hitting dept.”

Quote:
My question is whether the traditional techniques of the forms are lacking or whether the teacher/student is lacking?
My view is that the problem lies with the latter not the former.


I disagree. TMA’s techniques are not lacking_ it is the implementation and tactical know how and applications that is missing, something that belongs to modern combatives.

IUKF believes and supports this view. The reasons why we have someone like Dave Young on board. His forum reads as follows
Quote:


Quote:
In my humble opinion, yes, the winner has validated his skills to the point where he/she has successfully defended himself/herself without incurring any major harm. BTW, those skills learned from TMA may be more than just physical technique.


True up to a point. What is missing from this discussion is the true nature of street fights and nature and number of opponents, and nature of street attacks, i.e., multiple assailants and weapons, mainly blades these days.

The old ‘one on one’ is fading out faster than we can think.

The majority of fights I read about is always multiples and armed.

All that you write about TMA training and conditioning is very true, yet many TMAs lose fights and are even killed, like the event I investigated and reported about a TMA champion fighter ambushed on dark stairs, leaving his girl’s apt. _ toppled down to the first landing and getting his throat cut.

One way for you to evaluate the value of Dave’s cross training, and your power to hit and ‘solve’ violent scenarios as you describe, is to come down and train with him and see.

Dave’s forum states
Quote:
Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!


Quote:
Well, Dave, winning is not the be-all and end-all but it sures beats losing and IMO you either win or lose to the man, not to the style. The win might be based on psychological issues or a whole bunch of other variables aside from technique or skill learned through TMA training.



That is true, Mike, we have discussed this on my forum for years and Dave knows this well.
The objective is to ‘max out’ on improving the above. TMAs and or other defensive concepts are in constant evolution.

Quote:
So back to my question, if a student is lacking self-defense skills should he/she not go back to the roots of TMA and train harder and delve into a fuller understanding of the techniques handed down through the forms? Does not TMA, when taught and practiced appropriately, develop the skills and intensity levels that you mention?


Yes, but up to a point. ‘technique’ will always take a back seat to proper tactics_

Working together the advance to center stage.

Quote:
If not, then why has TMA transcended the ages and proven itself time and time again in real-life encounters


But of course. Yet many ‘properly trained’ have bitten the dust as well. It is a teacher’s obligation to evaluate and ‘experience’ these dogmatic feelings ‘hands on’ and ‘wrap the package’ tightly with judicious cross training.

Working with Dave or Rory, can be a very humbling experience, Mike.

Quote:
Dave, my issue is with those who disparage TMA as a worthless endeavour without understanding the techniques and without having ever mastered those same techniques.


We don’t have anyone disparaging TMA as a worthless endeavour on these pages, Mike. Where do you get this idea?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:26 pm 
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I wrote:

"if the student is willing to train to the appropriate level and if the teacher has the knowledge to transmit the information to the student. "

Stryke replied

"thats a hell of a lot of If`s Mike , what if one of those if`s falls down .... "

Well. Stryke, the same if's come into play no matter the training forum, including modern combative systems

Thus, my contention is modern combative systems may or may not be as effective as TMA systems dependent on the inclinations, knowledge and experience of the instructor and student.

The problem with modern combative systems (as I see it) is that they do not employ or engage in forms training and that, in my view, is short-sighted. The forms contain the elements and components of effective self-defense. If a student is lacking in the understanding or application from a system it is all to easy to blame the form or the technique from the form as opposed to working harder to understand the integral and conceptual concepts contained within the form or the techniques taken from the forms.



All the best,

Mike D.
Los Angeles


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:03 am 
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Van wrote:

"The average Joe cannot do the breaking you refer to, Mike. Take a look at the average karate student in a class. "

Van, I guess we have to define the term "average".

I have been speaking about dan ranked students who have been training under a serious instructor within a TMA system for at least 5 years. I am not including kids or teens and I am not including kyu ranks in my definition of the average karate-ka. Could the average Shodan or Nidan who has trained as I described break layers of inanaminate objects with the stopping power I presented." Well, I hope so, or else I would wonder about the ranking qualifications of his/her particular organization (and yes I do realize and understand that breaking inanimate objects does not indicate TMA competencY but it is indicative of the type of power that one can generate when properly trained).

"Also Dave Young demonstrated at summer camp, one on one, that hitting a real person as opposed to bricks is a horse of a different color. Pretty embarrassing to find oneself coming up short. Yet with Dave’s ‘cross training’ things improve rapidly in the ‘hitting dept.”


Was the hitting targeted to "soft" or conditioned areas? Was the hitting measured scientifically? To what level of competency did the hitters achieve before attempting this demonstration with Dave?



"TMA’s techniques are not lacking_ it is the implementation and tactical know how and applications that is missing, something that belongs to modern combatives. "

I agree with the first point but as to the second, are there not a number of ancient and current texts describing tactics and strategies including Sun Tsu's 'The Art of War'?
Is this knowledge really limited to modern combatives?

"The old ‘one on one’ is fading out faster than we can think. The majority of fights I read about is always multiples and armed. "

Why has this occurred? Could it be that the bad guys are have lost more than the won (on a one on one basis) due to the expansion of all fighting systems?

Does TMA contain forms and techniques to effectively handle multiple and bladed opponents?



"many TMAs lose fights and are even killed, like the event I investigated and reported about a TMA champion fighter ambushed on dark stairs, leaving his girl’s apt. _ toppled down to the first landing and getting his throat cut. "


I am so sorry to hear of this story and feel for the victim and his loved ones :cry:

I also understand that we are all subject to unexpected or random violence and I pray that no one of us ever have to face such a horrific situation. I would also, prefer, at this time not to go into a blizzard of stories wherein TMA's came out on top. I would prefer to focus on the value TMA brings to the self-defence arena.

"One way for you to evaluate the value of Dave’s cross training, and your power to hit and ‘solve’ violent scenarios as you describe, is to come down and train with him and see. "

I would love to travel to Florida, but time, money and distance are a prohibitive factor. Dave, if you ever come to the West Coast please be sure to publicize the event so that I may train with you and encourage other West Coast MA's to join us.


"Working with Dave or Rory, can be a very humbling experience, Mike."

Van, I have no doubt of this statement as I have heard the same from all who have trained with Dave and Rory.

OTOH, Dave and Rory are well conditioned, highly trained and very skillful MA's in their own right. What is the likelihood that we would face such trained individuals in a street encounter?

To Van, I never stated that you or Dave have disparaged TMA and if I have given offense, I apologize.

It appears that there is a trend in certain circles to dismiss the old training methods including the elimination of forms training. I am sure that you (and many others) have read or heard multiple complaints about the supposed lack of self-defence training in TMA? I can't count how may times I have presonally heard or read a comment that (insert fad) is more effective than TMA.


All the best,

Mike D.
Los Angeles


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:37 am 
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Quote:
The problem with modern combative systems (as I see it) is that they do not employ or engage in forms training


Hmmm..force on force redman katas… :)

Sure_ let’s tell Dave to dispense with scenario problem solving drills and do kata instead.

Are you listening Dave :D

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:39 am 
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As with anything there will always be opinions and comments. Both of which I enjoy and appreciate. As I mentioned before when I started this forum...

"This forum is not here to say anything negative about anyone style in general or in particular"...as I would hope there is nothing negative being said about the program we have decided to offer in March of 2007 which has been developed specifically for civilian and taught to thousands of professional throughout the world.

Once someone said, "Students are only as good as their teachers." To measure ones skill is be to be displayed through the experiences of another....

The main question we all WANT to ask but never do is...
"How good can I really be?"..but then when you hear the answer of how long it will take and dedication to reach this goal....very few make the commitment to achieve this goal.

There are other skills, techniques and tactics one can learn to enhance what they currently know, to make your own self better is the real journey we all seek.

If we lived in a world where you could all walk in a circle and the one who was left standing was the winner to prove who was the best in what they did....it still wouldn't prove what style or technique was better...but only what worked for today.....

You can either choose to stop your learning and evidentially be out dated or continue learn and improve your own skills....self pride, arrogance, ego, and personal opinions-not supported by professional fact is often the biggest obstacle for humans to over come in regards to learning.....I deal with this on a daily basis. WE have to teach what works, because what we teach professional skills they will use to save their lives, as life encounters rarely get a second shot at the title so to speak.....

So with this being said, I am hoping you will join us in our journey...If you want to bring this Reality Training Series to your area and offer it to your students then talk with me on bringing it to your area like we are doing in FL.....The only way this will grow is if we take the time to water it.....

Thanks again and I look forward to talking more with you in the future...Stay safe Strong and God Bless!

Dave


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:43 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
The problem with modern combative systems (as I see it) is that they do not employ or engage in forms training


Hmmm..force on force redman katas… :)

Sure_ let’s tell Dave to dispense with scenario problem solving drills and do kata instead.

Are you listening Dave :D


I am listening Van.....but to be honest we do have katas as you put it...we call then tactical warm ups...one of the biggest problems I think is definitions and meanings......but time will change this.....or at least I am working on it....

Did you get to read the new letter from George..the information you wanted is posted there for your forum....Maybe we can get some of your people to FL in 2007....

Did you have a good weekend?

Dave


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:16 am 
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Quote:
Was the hitting targeted to "soft" or conditioned areas? Was the hitting measured scientifically? To what level of competency did the hitters achieve before attempting this demonstration with Dave?


Mike you need to attend one of Dave’s seminars and all your questions will be answered. You will even get a chance to demonstrate your stopping power against him in a safe manner.

Quote:
I agree with the first point but as to the second, are there not a number of ancient and current texts describing tactics and strategies including Sun Tsu's 'The Art of War'?
Is this knowledge really limited to modern combatives?


Mike we can speculate on TMA dogma all day long. Do yourself a favor and attend one of Dave’s seminars. Feel free to show the group the tactics and strategies you mention.

Quote:
Why has this occurred? Could it be that the bad guys are have lost more than the won (on a one on one basis) due to the expansion of all fighting systems?


Mike, attend a modern combative school, like Dave's program or the Lethal force institute, thunder ranch, gunsite etc., and the answers to all these questions will become crystal clear.

Quote:
I would also, prefer, at this time not to go into a blizzard of stories wherein TMA's came out on top. I would prefer to focus on the value TMA brings to the self-defence arena.


There are different kinds of blizzards, Mike. TMA, does of course, bring immense value to the self defense arena or none of us would be practicing.

That is not the question Mike. What modern combatives does is to take the wonderful tool box of TMA and bring reality applications to it along proven tactical ways.

Again, forget forum discussions until after you have attended a modern combative program along the force continuum, then get back on the forums to discuss and criticize as you see fit.

You wrote
Quote:
I would love to travel to Florida, but time, money and distance are a prohibitive factor. Dave, if you ever come to the West Coast please be sure to publicize the event so that I may train with you and encourage other West Coast MA's to join us.


That’s the spirit, Mike. My advice is for you to refrain from these discussions until after you have had hands on experience, because by then you will have gained some wonderful new insights into the world of violence.

Quote:
OTOH, Dave and Rory are well conditioned, highly trained and very skillful MA's in their own right. What is the likelihood that we would face such trained individuals in a street encounter?


You miss the point Mike. By humbling I mean feeling humbled after being shown the big ‘holes’ In our TMA’s fighting ability perceptions.

Quote:
To Van, I never stated that you or Dave have disparaged TMA and if I have given offense, I apologize.


Not a problem Mike _

Quote:
It appears that there is a trend in certain circles to dismiss the old training methods including the elimination of forms training. I am sure that you (and many others) have read or heard multiple complaints about the supposed lack of self-defence training in TMA? I can't count how may times I have presonally heard or read a comment that (insert fad) is more effective than TMA.


That is true, and it is ridiculous, and it certainly none of us here on the forums take this position.

By the same token, you hear idiotic claims of ‘ultimate defensive skills’ against any street attack, any weapon, any number of assailants _ just by the practice of kata, prearranged drills, bunkai and conditioning.

It is a two way street.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:23 am 
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Dave Young wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
The problem with modern combative systems (as I see it) is that they do not employ or engage in forms training


Hmmm..force on force redman katas… :)

Sure_ let’s tell Dave to dispense with scenario problem solving drills and do kata instead.

Are you listening Dave :D


I am listening Van.....but to be honest we do have katas as you put it...we call then tactical warm ups...one of the biggest problems I think is definitions and meanings......but time will change this.....or at least I am working on it....

Did you get to read the new letter from George..the information you wanted is posted there for your forum....Maybe we can get some of your people to FL in 2007....

Did you have a good weekend?

Dave


Yes Dave..good point about the tactical warm up katas_

I did see the posted article about your program and will discuss on my forum.

I encourage all my students to attend _

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Van


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:29 am 
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BTW_ Mike

Are you familiar with tachypsychia and how it can affect the defensive component?

Maloney and I learned this fantastic information while training at LFI _

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Van


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:41 am 
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Mike,

I know you do. Here are links to past discussions:

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... chypsychia

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... chia#13905

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... chia#13886


Feel free to reopen any of them and discuss new perceptions as we evolve in our training.

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Van


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:17 am 
Quote:
Thus, my contention is modern combative systems may or may not be as effective as TMA systems dependent on the inclinations, knowledge and experience of the instructor and student.

The problem with modern combative systems (as I see it) is that they do not employ or engage in forms training and that, in my view, is short-sighted. The forms contain the elements and components of effective self-defense. If a student is lacking in the understanding or application from a system it is all to easy to blame the form or the technique from the form as opposed to working harder to understand the integral and conceptual concepts contained within the form or the techniques taken from the forms


this is a good post .

I think the real issue is not either/or but a merging of knowledge , that to me is what Vans been about from day dot , making it work .

Every peice of knowledge I get makes my understanding of my traditional training more complete .

This I take back to my kata , and see where it was all along .


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 Post subject: Mike _check this out
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:10 pm 
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http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=16608

Right on target with this discussion. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:19 am 
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Dave and Van:

I sincerely hope that either or both of you will be able to travel to the West Coast for a seminar. Should you host an event here in Cal., I will be sure to attend and encourage others to join us for the "fun". (Unfortunately, I am personally not in a position to sponsor such an event).

"What modern combatives does is to take the wonderful tool box of TMA and bring reality applications to it along proven tactical ways. "

This sounds cool, it appeared to me that we were throwing out the baby with the bath water but now I realize this is not the case.

" By humbling I mean feeling humbled after being shown the big ‘holes’ In our TMA’s fighting ability perceptions. "

I would argue that hand to hand fighting has not changed since homo sapiens have been on the planet. No one country or system or organization, no mattter how old or modern, can claim secret knowledge. The Egytians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Turks, Brits, Feudal Knights, Native Americans, Chinese Masters, our own honorable US Marines, etc,, etc. all developed and honed admirable and demonstrable hand to hand fighting and weapons tactics and techniques.

Without sounding critical or challenging, I am curious to know and am sincerely wondering if modern combative systems bring new knowledge and techniques that have never been addressed by the most formidable fighting forces from our ancient and modern history?

From a certain perspective, whether the answer is yes or no really doesn't matter so long as the knowledge and training experiences bring value to the participants (as I am sure that they do). So my question is more of an intellectual query. In other words, I am curious to know what historical sources have been drawn upon to develop modern combative systems?


"you hear idiotic claims of ‘ultimate defensive skills’ against any street attack, any weapon, any number of assailants _ just by the practice of kata, prearranged drills, bunkai and conditioning. "

Yup, this indocrination is all too rampant in many dojos perhaps as a way to expand business or to stroke egos. I don't know. Humility seems to be more of a platitude than an attitude in most dojos and that is most unfortunate.

"Are you familiar with tachypsychia and how it can affect the defensive component? "

Thanks to you, I am now familiar with this term and SSR and I am very appreciative that you have shared your knowledge. Your postings inspired me to research and learn more about these topics and I have become a better teacher due to your valuable insights.

As an aside, I also started looking into sports psych. as related to the tournamnet aspect of our avocation - they lost me in pseudo-psych. speech and correlative statistical sampling. I gave up after reading about female German volleyball players and their performance during monthly cycles 8O


All the best,

Mike D.
Los Angeles


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