Katyn Forest

[JOHN THURSTON]

After hitler had abrogated the Treaty of Versailles and reoccupied the Rhineland an all out program of military expansion and militarization of all industry took place in Germany.

Hitler never won a single election, but the well Respected General Von Hindenburg was president in 1933.

Real power rested with the Chancellor much as real power in many Parliamentary states lies with the Prime minister.

Hindenburg named Adolf Hitler Chancellor in 1933 as I recall.

Please correct me on this because I write often totally on memory and am quite glad of any audience and any corrections.

By 1939 Hitler had managed to annex Austria, reoccupy the Rhineland (despite France's then overwhelming military superiority), rearm the Wermacht, destroy the SA, create the SS and Waffen SS, defang the Powerful Chezch Army, annex the defensible eastern part of Chezchoslovakia in the name of freeing the Sudeten Germans . and invade Poland, I beleive, in September of that year 1939.

The Sudetenland was a dagger pointed into the heart of Poland.

Hitler may have been a monster but, I have to say, he was neither stupid nor a coward.

Points for another thread.

Despite the size of Poland's army and the dedication of its troops, a policy of Give No Ground along the Borders was adopted and disaster quickly ensued.

Strong points were surrounded or bypassed, to be plucked later at leisure when logistical support dried up.

The indefensible "Danzig Corridor" was quickly retaken.

The creation of the corridor to the city now called Gdansk had been created by the calamitous Treaty of Versailles. It also separated Germany from East Prussia and were yet other cassus belli handed to Hitler.

The Luftwaffe had primarily been created for the purpose of supporting the Wermacht.

This specialization cost Germany dearly in 1940 but not in Poland as German forces crashed in from the West in September of 1939.

At an apparent appointed time, Soviet Forces smashed into unsuspecting Polish forces from the East.

I will not detail the ground actions.

Most of the Polish Officer Corps was captured, many in the East.

Hitler's initial avowed goals for Germany were 1. to obtain Liebensraum, or room for expansion for the Master Race and 2. to oppose Communism. 3. to liberate Germanic people separated from the Fatherland by the unjust Treaty of Versailles as well as those of the former Autro Hungarian Empire who were 'ethnic Germans".

In Truth, Versailes was vindictive and short sighted and never even ratified by the US Congress.

So, the unlikely and most evil brotherhood ever established quickly crushed Poland.

German and Russian frontiers were "adjusted" according to some agreement neither side wished known.

Perhaps in captured German Archives some details of this may exist.

Hitler, of course, had varied from his implacable hatred of Stalin only as a matter of convenience, and the same could be said for Stalin's feelings for Hitler.

In 1943 German forces, now even stronger than in 1939, even though the Luftwaffe's weakness in the area of Strategic Campaigns lost the Battle of Britain and forever cancelled "Operation SeeAdler".

Hitler launched 180 divisions into the Soviet Buffer zone of former Polish land.

The forces totaled 1.5 million men. The code name for the Operation was Operation Barbarossa . Paul Carrell's Opeartion Barbarossa Hilter mMoves East" is well written and complete.

German 'Divisions" were smaller than their counterparts.

In the course of the Invasion a tremendous mass grave was uncovered in "a wooded area near Gneizdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Western Russia."

The Wermacht exhumed the bodies.

The conclusion bandied about was that the Soviets had massacred the bulk of the Polish Officer corps to anihilate any non Communists.

Stalin had planned ahead. Another monster who was not stupid although, of course, both men were evil, flawed, warped by power and little mourned in the end.

Nonetheless, of course, maintained that the Germans had conducted the horrendous massacre.

Before the truth of the matter could be objectively determined, the Soviet Army retook its lost territories, swept through Poland and conducted further exhumations. It was the part line that said it was indeed the Nazis who had murdered those buried in Katyn Forest.

No Suitable explanation has ever been seen by myself as to how the Wermacht freed, transported and then murdered those who must have been POW's of Russia.

"in 1989, with the collapse of Soviet Power----" and the ushering of Glasnost along with completing the destruction of the Cult of Stalin started by Kruschev----"Gorbachev finally admitted that the the Soviet NKVD-"predecessor of the KGB and meanng: "Impossible to tell when I will return home".

Perhaps this referred not to its members but its victims"------had executed the Poles and disclosed two other burial sites-----"containing some 25,700 Poles" the execution of whom had been ordered by Stalin.

Some proof of this can be explained by western reports of skulls bearing 'crucifom' wounds conforming to the type of Bayonet in use by Russian Forces and as mounted on the M1891 Moisin Nagant repeating bolt action rifle. Nazi bayonets were, as were ours, of dual purpose blade type design. M1891 Bayonets were said to never have been removed from the Rifle once it was issued in wartime.

Much more is available on this horrific incident and I have my research out and standing by should any questions come up.

Part of my point is "never surrender all power to one's government no matter how good an idea it may seem at the time".

As an aside, American Aircrew captured in Korea and Vietnam and subsequently transported to the USSR have never been satisfactorily accounted for.

"o the tangled webs we weave when first we practice to decieve'

JT

[mikemurphy]

john,

Just a few thoughts.


>Hitler never won a single election, but the well Respected General Von Hindenburg was president in 1933.

Real power rested with the Chancellor much as real power in many Parliamentary states lies with the Prime minister.<

What I have always read was that Hindenburg, who only reluctently agreed to run again. But he was still popular and Hitler did not enjoy wide-spread support around Germany. I'm not sure what the role of Chancellor in Germany pre-wwii, but I do know that Hindenburg only chose Hitler in order to "keep an eye on him." I believe the real power still was in the hands of the president. However, when Hindenburg died, Hitler combined both positions and the point became moot.

<By 1939 Hitler had managed to annex Austria, reoccupy the Rhineland (despite France's then overwhelming military superiority), rearm the Wermacht, destroy the SA, create the SS and Waffen SS, defang the Powerful Chezch Army, annex the defensible eastern part of Chezchoslovakia in the name of freeing the Sudeten Germans . and invade Poland, I beleive, in September of that year 1939. >

The SS was already a functioning body in the Nazi party prior to 1939, and the SA was, for all intensive purposes, assimilated into the regular army after the "Night of Long Knives" in which most of the SA leadership was murdered by the SS under Hitler's orders, including Earnst Rolm, probably the only person who could challenge Hitler at that time. I've never read about a "powerful Czech army." The Sudetendland was given to Hitler and the rest of it was simply assimilated after Hitler was sure that no one would stop him if he went any further. The invasion date of Poland was Sept.1, 1939.

<Hitler may have been a monster but, I have to say, he was neither stupid nor a coward.?

I'll agree that Hitler was no coward. His WWI record stands for itself, but as for being stupid, I would disagree. He was as politically astute as anyone. He managed to take Germany from the pits of economic and social ruin to a leading nation, however, he did not have the military training or experience to make some of the decisions he was making. WWII is full of mistakes Hitler made because he did not consult with his military leadership. Prior to the official start of WWII, Hitler did not have the blessings of many of his high echelon of military leaders, but it was a moot point until Poland.

<In Truth, Versailes was vindictive and short sighted and never even ratified by the US Congress. >

The Treaty of Versailles was not ratified by the US because Wilson made the mistake of not inviting leading republicans to Europe with him, namely Henry Cabot Lodge, MA. There was also the problem with the Wilson's plan for a League of Nations. Many people were not enthusiastic about putting our military under the leadership of other nations. Lastly, Wilson decided to go against the grain and sidestep the Congress by going right to the public.


mike

[JOHN THURSTON]

A Great couple of post Mike.

I do not think Adolf was a genius, he made mistakes that would keep you and I talkking for days.

Nonetheless, he managed to accomplish what was mentioned.

Whether Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor out of fear for of the strength of the Nazi party and it's suppoters, I cannot be sure.

Obviously it was a mistake for the aging Chancellor to appoint such a man to a post of such power. Did he not know anything about the consequences.

Versailles was a Treat which, some argue, was a cassus Belli for the "Second European Civil War".

I do not credit the US Congress with enough wit to have failed to ratify it for that reason. So, I agree with you.

Hitler was clever to have the 'capitulation' document signed at the site of the signing of the 1st Versailles treaty. I do not think he chose the site by accident, I thnk the German people applauded that particular evidence of AH's cleverness.

WAS AH a military genius, no, we have dozens of blunders to point to that say he was not.

In the British magazine "Punch" Napoleon was once shown falling because he tried to straddle Europe from Spain to Russia. Obviously Hitled missed this one.

He counted on making a separate peace with Britain, or subduing her, before he savaged his true enemy, Stalin. He lost his patience and his mind to go East with Britain unsubdued.


The Ukrainians welcomed him to some degree, and he savaged them anyway.

Thanks for your great post, I am gong to print it out for my files..

JT