Man Escorted From Gym For Grunting

[MikeK]

There's even a flashing light and siren on the wall, labeled a "lunk alarm," which sounds if someone grunts or drops weights on the floor.

Palazzolo admits she called the cops on Argibay. The Wappingers Falls police report said officers were asked to "escort a member out of the club for grunting while working out...which is not conforming with the rules of the establishment."

To me, this is about someone joining a gym because it was cheap and convenient but decided to disregard the rules. He could have joined a gym where grunting is the norm but he didn't, he wanted cheap and convenient. BTW I don't think anybody is afraid of a man grunting but has a preference not to be distracted by it. Same if someone joins one martial arts school over another, it's a preference.

that just means you dont get it , the voice is a link between the physical and mental , the lesson of the kiai escapes Uechi ryu it seems .

The old "you don't get it", defense. Sorry Marcus, but I disagree with you this time. I get it, my instructor gets it but we don't train with a kiai. In our case silence is golden. Maybe the Uechi folks have a reason for not using a kiai more that's every bit as valid (on invalid) as the Shotokan folks use of it.

[Van Canna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jFILik098o

[Bill Glasheen]

Fascinating, Van. This is in the realm of what Marcus was talking about.

If you cant get primal in a constructive way , well your already dead .

I wonder just how many of these "offended" and "intimidated" people turn out to be "primal" behind closed doors. I'm betting there are a few. And just why would they grunt, talk, and maybe screech a little while makin bacon?

Primal... Good word!

Even if it's just a woman faking it, it's human nature.



It drives or comes from passion. Passion kindles the spirit. And the spirit affects the body and the mind.

To turn the tables a bit... I wonder how many of these "intimidated" people know how offensive they are to people who come to the gym to work out hard and then go home. Do they know how they look when they clog the gym from 5:30 to 8:30 PM in their spandex to see and be seen? To spend time engaging in highly verbal mating rituals rather than get off the damn equipment and let somebody who came to work out use it? A serious lifter turns the mushin on and ignores it. (Not that they don't "look" a little for inspiration... ). You'd think "the offended" could return the favor.

As Rodney King once said, "Can't we all get along?"

I invite all you doubting Thomases - including and especially a certain someone who needs to get his arse back in the gym - to come to American Family Fitness. Come see what Bryan Evans made work. What does he know that the discriminating metrosexual gyms don't? How does he do it? Why is he making more money than they are - without discriminating against anyone on either side of the statistical spectrum? How is it that the infirmed and the athletically gifted work out side by side? How do they get elderly water aerobics classes in the same place as the kiddie play? Karate in the same room where aerobics is king?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

As for the strictly physical nature of things....

Pursed lip breathing is what they teach asthmatics. It's very limited in terms of the resistance to air flow that it can create. But if you study Goju style Sanchin, the breathing they teach there involves using the epiglottis rather than the lips for resistance to air flow. The nostrils are used to resist on the inhale half of the cycle. The two together create a waxing and waning of the intrapleural pressure, which mechanically affects venous return and stimulates various receptors (right heart, aortic arch) in the chest. An increase in intrapleural pressure can also strengthen the core - something needed in squats and Olympic power lifts.

To you aerobically-obsessed people, this doesn't apply to what you do. And FWIW, aerobics is becoming passe in the exercise physiology literature. Check out interval training and resistance training. The two together are far better for you than aerobics. And FWIW, karate aerobics is an oxymoron. But I digress...

The epiglottis is very much like the weight on top of a pressure cooker. It applies a fixed resistance to air outflow, proportional to the weight. That in turn affects pressure inside the pressure cooker, proportional to the weight times the area of the opening (force per unit area = pressure).

But what happens if you want a higher intrapleural pressure? The lifter in question needed that when squatting 500. I need it any time I go over 200 in a squat. (I'm a bit more wirey in my build. No 'rhoids in my past.) I need it whenever I get past 135 in the clean and jerk. Well... The epiglottis maxes out at a certain resistance to flow. But if you add the resistance of the epiglottis plus close the vocal chords a bit, you get a higher resistance, which creates a subequent higher intrapleural pressure.

And you know what happens when the vocal chords start closing while air is coming out the lungs? You make noise.

Mr. 500 pound lifter was nowhere near doing a primal scream. It wasn't about driving passion and the spirit. He just needed a higher resistance to air flow.

Offended? This is just basic physiology. At least he's minding his own business, and using the equipment for what it was intended for.

- Bill

[Stryke]

The old "you don't get it", defense. Sorry Marcus, but I disagree with you this time. I get it, my instructor gets it but we don't train with a kiai. In our case silence is golden. Maybe the Uechi folks have a reason for not using a kiai more that's every bit as valid (on invalid) as the Shotokan folks use of it.

ok the you dont get it was too much , But the voice forms a link between the mind and the body , it inspires action and emotion , and overcomes mental confusion , it`s gives clarity and commitment .

this sounds mystical but it`s indeed physchological and physiological .

Seriously, kiai jutsu is the basis of karate. Movement is sound.

If you sound like an animal, you become an animal.

theres a lot to this statement , it`s worth thinking about .

A lot of people (i`d say most ) have a hard time talking and striking , why is that ? , why does the voice affect the body ? , how can it be used as a positive ? , why do we yell at all when were upset ? , does it make you feel more forcefull ? , does the body or mind lead the voice ? , can it work the other way ?

[Bill Glasheen]

Ever watch a Bruce Lee movie?



He sounds like my Rhodesian Ridgeback when he wants to play with a dog while I'm walking him on a leash. He rarely barks - the nature of the breed. But he "talks" in ways which match his mental and physical disposition.

They were bred to protect South African farms and to hunt. Hunt lions...



(They stalk and harass them.) What do they know about anything?

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Well... The epiglottis maxes out at a certain resistance to flow. But if you add the resistance of the epiglottis plus close the vocal chords a bit, you get a higher resistance, which creates a subequent higher intrapleural pressure.

Okay, well if you can't create enough pressure with pursed lips combined with partially-closed epiglottis then I suppose vocal cords might add a little. Maybe my knowledge of vocal cord physiology is lacking. My understanding is that vocal cord activity is more a matter of longitudinal tension on the cords themselves rather than a drawing together which would block airflow. If I'm wrong about that, and they really are able to block a significant amount of air then their engagement would be useful if you don't have enough strength in your lips to sufficiently compliment the action of your glottis.

Out of curiosity, you keep using the word discriminatory. Previously you've said things to the effect that discrimination in a general sense just means being choosy. How is this a form of discrimination that warrants legal challenge?

Strike:

shame on the guy who calls himself a man who is scared of by another exerting and grunting .

Why should anyone be ashamed for not wanting to put up with a-holes? I don't think they're really terrified of the sound of some guy grunting. It's more about annoyance, and it's probably more related to a general pattern than just the sound. Someone who is there to show off is doing things like smirking at people lifting less weight. I'm not sure what else they might do, since I don't lift, but it's not hard to imagine a number of ways someone might make a nuisance of themselves. I see no reason anyone should be ashamed because they want to focus on working out instead of ignoring a-holes.

Also, maybe it's not a man, maybe it's a woman. The problem is that it's impossible to administrate a rule that says "no jerks allowed" because the guy can always claim "Oh no, I wasn't showing off for the little lady I was just minding my own business" even if he is being a distraction by puffing up his chest and trying to sound manly two feet away. Shouldn't a woman be able to go lift without being distracted by idiots trying to gain her attention with their antics?

Fivedragons:

Seriously, kiai jutsu is the basis of karate. Movement is sound. Very Happy

What do you mean by "Movement is sound"? There can be a psychological benefit to making some noise. A kiai can intimidate an opponent and inspire oneself. But how is its use the basis of karate? Maybe my perspective is just skewed since I've never been able to find anything on Kiai Jutsu that isn't laden with mystical mumbo-jumbo.

[MikeK]

I invite all you doubting Thomases - including and especially a certain someone who needs to get his arse back in the gym - to come to American Family Fitness.

Ever think that maybe a certain someone has been happily training elsewhere?

ok the you dont get it was too much , But the voice forms a link between the mind and the body , it inspires action and emotion , and overcomes mental confusion , it`s gives clarity and commitment .

So if you don't give voice you can't link the mind and the body, or clarity and commitment? Why are you suffering from mental confusion? Why do you need to yell to achieve those states?

A lot of people (i`d say most ) have a hard time talking and striking , why is that ? , why does the voice affect the body ? , how can it be used as a positive ? , why do we yell at all when were upset ? , does it make you feel more forcefull ? , does the body or mind lead the voice ? , can it work the other way ?

Now those are interesting questions.

[MikeK]

Out of curiosity, you keep using the word discriminatory. Previously you've said things to the effect that discrimination in a general sense just means being choosy. How is this a form of discrimination that warrants legal challenge?

I noticed that too. Jeez Bill, voting Democratic this Tuesday?

[CANDANeh]

The problem is that it's impossible to administrate a rule that says "no jerks allowed"

When I lift to what I think is my limit or maybe beyond...I "grunt " Don`t really mean to do so it just happens. I used to feel awkward about it but I discovered it`s normal like sweating puddles which I also do (the looks I get when it collects on the floor...Oh my)
No I don`t "grunt" for the ladies no more than I would pass gas to attract them

Bigger issues in a gym than the clang of weights and the "grunting" of those giving their all. PS Children grunt when lifting something heavy...Why?

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't lift

This is readily apparent from your post, Justin.

It's like the "stupid" argument going on in another thread on Thurston's forum. All your pejoratives (A-holes, jerks, show-offs, etc.) are highly judgemental. There's no objective means by which you can measure it. If we had an objective measure, I can guarantee it would have little statistical correlation with one's propensity to grunt when lifting something.

Read Leo's post above. Then get in the weight room and start lifting. It won't hurt you. Find someone who can train you how to do it correctly. Then just do it. If over time you choose to train with extreme intensity, I guarantee that one day you will grunt.

Old people grunt when they get out of a chair, or get back up after reaching down for something. Why? (Go back to my physiologic explanations.)

My understanding is that vocal cord activity is more a matter of longitudinal tension on the cords themselves rather than a drawing together which would block airflow.

Take a deep breath and then breathe out, Justin. Then do the same, only while singing a note. Measure the time it takes to do each exhale. Why does it take longer to exhale while singing a note? How does that affect intrapleural (inside the chest) pressure?

Then try varying volume (while keeping the same tone). Does it take longer or shorter to breathe out if you sing a loud note vs. soft note? How do those opera singers hold a note for so long? Why is it so important for them to have such strong diaphragmatic and intercostal muscles?

Now consider the similarity between an increase in intrapleural pressure vs. a properly inflated tire? What happens to your ability to drive a car if the tires have no pressure?

Listen to a grunt someone naturally does when lifting something. Listen carefully, with an ear to tone. What does it sound like? (Hint: high tone going down to low tone.) Why???

Out of curiosity, you keep using the word discriminatory. Previously you've said things to the effect that discrimination in a general sense just means being choosy. How is this a form of discrimination that warrants legal challenge?

There's a difference between being discriminatory and engaging in discrimination. Check out your dictionary.

It's an intellectual curiosity, Justin, and something which I thought would appeal to your own political sensibilities.

In Charlottesville, no lawyers were needed. Word got out about what they were doing, and the club developed an unsavory reputation. The bad publicity ultimately killed the business.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Now are we talking grunts or talking about roars and bellows that ring throughout the gym? Honestly neither form bothers or intimidates me, though I usually will size up the fellow who bellows to get a read on his demeaner.

What really pisses me off in the gym aren't the fellows who bellow, but the chaps who yap longer than they should between sets. After that it'd be the mates who leave the plates and bells unracked. On the rare occasion the circuit jerk that lays claim to multiple stations, bars and benches as he breezes through his routine without a thought to who else may want to work in.

[AAAhmed46]

theres a lot to this statement , it`s worth thinking about .

A lot of people (i`d say most ) have a hard time talking and striking , why is that ? , why does the voice affect the body ? , how can it be used as a positive ? , why do we yell at all when were upset ? , does it make you feel more forcefull ? , does the body or mind lead the voice ? , can it work the other way ?

[/quote]

So...whats the jutsu element of it other then screaming?

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

NOW we're talking... I couldn't agree more.

So...whats the jutsu element of it other then screaming?

Let me answer your question with a question, or more accurately a series of questions.

Why is "the gaze" so important in Uechi Ryu? It's just a facial expression, after all. Do we do it to impress the chicks? Do we do it to scare people? (It can be a bit intimidating, but...) Does a "mushin gaze" lead to a "mushin mind?"

I was trained as a systems physiologist. They are all about the interaction of physiologic systems. Early in my graduate career, my advisor dropped a paper on my desk. At the time I didn't quite understand why he did. Now I know. It was brilliant.

In the study there were three groups. One group (the control) sat quietly. One group was asked to think about various events in their lives which triggered emotions that were on a card (fear, joy, surprise, intimidation, etc.) A third group was given pictures of facial expessions and a mirror, and told to mimic the facial expressions.

And you know what? The group that did nothing more than mimic the facial expressions demonstrated many of the same physiologic changes (basic HR, blood pressure, respiration, EEG, etc.) as the group which imagined the events in life which matched the emotions written down on different cards.

That study demonstrated the mind-body-spirit connection pretty nicely. It's stronger than most people realize - particularly in a group (actors) accutomed to accurate, spontaneous generation of human emotions and the expression thereof.

Try smiling sometime. How does it affect your disposition? Just last week, Vicki (a.k.a. chef) told me she's started a practice of smiling before she picks up a ringing phone. And you know what she told me? She said that the people on the other end of the phone line (who could not see her) constantly commented on how cheerful and upbeat she sounded.

And I'm betting she lives longer for it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

As I was eating my Subway sub contemplating this thread and the various perspectives, I got to thinking about something which may explain the different camps of thinking.

How many people grunt or scream when working on machine weights like Nautilus, Strive, and Universal? (Next to none. Not even when the Neanderthals get on them.)

How many people grunt or scream when working on freeweights - particularly exercises like the squat, dead lift, and power clean? (Quite a few)

WHY THE DIFFERENCE???

And if you can answer that question, then you'll know why I believe that free weight training and NOT machines are key to practicing a martial art. Uechi Ryu is no exception here. Now... Why would I say that? Why would I tell people that often doing machines only can do more harm than good if you're an athlete vs. someone who just wants to burn some calories and look a certain way?

Therein may lie the big gap in understanding between the grunters and the silent lifters. There's a core concept involved here.

- Bill