Man Escorted From Gym For Grunting

[MikeK]

true martial prowess comes form recreating feelings not techniques IMHO , if you recreate the feeling the technique takes care of itself , the voice can be a facilitator in this regard .

I'm learning the opposite about martial prowess, but my teacher . Feelings have little to do how we (where I train, you're training may differ) respond and can even get in the way. Going primal is a last ditch effort when you've gotten yourself really into the soup. The other thing is having to depend on feelings or getting yourself psyched up can take time that you don't have.

Show me someone who can at will unleash a primal scream and i`ll show you someone who at will can unleash .

Unleash what, what state will their body be in and will it be the optimal state for the situation?

Adam, here is an article on kiaijutsu. It can be useful if you are able to read when it effects the other person which can vary. I've had people try to use their kiai on me during sparring with no other effect than I hit them faster as they were busy telegraphing their intent with facial expression, body language and sound. The kiai can be useful at the right time (Marines doing a bayonet charge) but is still if limited value in my opinion.

kiai

From Fighting Arts

One more

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm convinced that there's a Celtic curse gene. From what occupational therapists have told me about the pathology of post-stroke patients, there is a "curse" area of the brain, and a greater or lesser degree (and will) to control it. With the Irish in County Cork, I think they either have a well-developed curse region or a total lack of ability (at times) to regulate their impulses.

Then again, there are a lot of Irish out there...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

If you read some of the stuff written in the modern RBSD literature, you'll see discussion about the constructive use of emotion.

If the situation is life-threatening, you will experience relatively instantaneous primal (low brain) reactions and instincts, and respond in an extreme fashion (survival stress response). If you're going off to battle or on a drug raid, there's plenty of time for the brain to start playing games with your body.

I think Marcus is talking about getting in touch with some of these emotions and extremes of physiologic response. They exist within all of us, and can come out when we least expect it. But they come out because our DNA survived due to these states of mind and emotion.

Like dealing with pain, or with high levels of neurohormonal stimulation, I call working with it "tasting the hot sauce." If you've rarely been in touch with it before an automobile accident is several seconds from happening, the sudden experience can induce paralysis (deer in the headlamps syndrome) or loss of any reasonable modicum of coordination. But if you've induced these states through extreme training and practiced technique and tactics while experiencing it, there's a possibility that an individual can channel the emotions and high energy, and perform with extraordinary levels of coordination as well.

Others have written quite a bit about the usefulness of religion, righteous indignation, and belief in mission. Imagine the steely determination of the 9/11 hijackers. They may have been part of a sick, sociopathic cult, but their execution was remarkable.

The key is being in control of it all. You cannot let it control you either in an emergency or under everyday stress and/or temptation. Live life with passion, but don't beat up a girlfriend who threatens your masculinity or assaults you.

- Bill

[Stryke]

The key is being in control of it all. You cannot let it control you either in an emergency or under everyday stress and/or temptation.

thats it it`s a control issue , being able to use it , facilitate your natural gifts . Feel is faster than thought , faking it is of course thinking about feeling , an oxymoron .

[mhosea]

I have seen a tendency in some styles to use kiai very frequently, even with every attack. I think traditionally in Okinawan karate it is used much more sparingly. Without stopping to count, I'd guess that in Matsubayashi kata there are usually 3 or less per kata. Most probably have just 1 or 2.

[MikeK]

Guess we just have different views on this and different goals. Have a good evening all.

[Bruise* Lee]

Gyms ought to have the partitioned geography of a traditional Dojo. The trad dojo has a geography. Black belts near the front with highest rank to one side, in descending order to the white belts in the back. It was an honor to get to stand in the front spots.

A gym ought to have the black belt area - maybe make it realistic, like being able to perform any one of : 300 LB bench, 35 pull ups, 400 LB squat, 400 deadlift etc. It can be near the back and partitioned by glass so the grunts don't freak out the newbies. In the front, you can have the dumbells up to 30 LBS, and some machines. It would be an honor to gain permission to the serious side of the gym - if you wanted to stay in the white belt area thats okay, and having it at the front keeps them from having to even see the upper echelon lifters and stare face to face at everything they are not.

It would also keep the less elite out of the "big dawg" section - man I hate it when somebody is in the power rack doing barbell bicep curls with a 10 LB weight on each end of the barbell and they clog it up for half an hour. A power rack is for heavy lifting. Or they put a 25 LB plate on the calf machine and do calf raises - they would get a much better work out just doing standing calf raises (rising on their tip toes) - as they are lifting their own body weight - but they never seem to realize just walking around is a much better calf workout than 25 LBS on the calf machine.

They should have an elite area, and a novice area - that way the big dawgs don't frighten the newbies and the newbies don't kill one of the elite by causing his blood pressure to go through the roof as he waits to squat heavy while they finish up freaking wrist curls using a barbell in the damn power rack..... I mean WRIST CURLS in a power rack for crying out loud!

It is great to entice the flabby majority into the gym to get into shape by making the environment completely non-threatening - but it might be nice to give them something to aspire to, or at least glimpse the possiblities. Can you really call it "getting in shape' when they never get past using one or two plates on a machine (even leg machines) followed by 15 minutes of slow walking on the treadmill?

[Stryke]

Guess we just have different views on this and different goals. Have a good evening all.

why different goals Mike ?

maybe different tools .....

[MikeK]

Marcus, I think we all have the goal of being effective, but I think we have different goals on how we want to be effective.

Gyms ought to have the partitioned geography of a traditional Dojo. The trad dojo has a geography. Black belts near the front with highest rank to one side, in descending order to the white belts in the back. It was an honor to get to stand in the front spots.

Great idea, and we can also have the newbies bow to those who are ahead of them. That'll really help people get into shape.

[fivedragons]

"I think we all have the goal of being effective, but I think we have different goals on how we want to be effective."

Maybe we're all effective allready.

Even though we're walking on our own paths, I'm pretty sure we'll end up at the same destination sooner or later. It's nice to have company.

Cheers to the guy who got kicked out of the gym.

[Jake Steinmann]

Gyms ought to have the partitioned geography of a traditional Dojo. The trad dojo has a geography. Black belts near the front with highest rank to one side, in descending order to the white belts in the back. It was an honor to get to stand in the front spots.

Ugh. No thank you.

If I walked into a gym where they told me I wasn't allowed into certain sections because I wasn't "good enough", I'd walk right back out.

I want some weights and some bars to put them on. A cardio machine or two would be nice to. Other than those basics, I could care less what anyone else in the gym thinks of me or what I'm doing there. I certainly am not interested in proving to anyone that I have a right to use any equipment.

[Bill Glasheen]

This thread has been fascinating and very revealing.

To start with, folks should know that I know Mike K personally. He shows up in our Uechi class on a very rare occasion. He has his other martial pursuits as well. As to why he gets upset at grunters and heavy lifters in the gym, this I've never quite understood. This isn't Mike's first thread on this as I recall.

As to what Bruise suggested and Jake objected to, perhaps what they have going on at American Family Fitness is a nice compromise.

On the one hand, I know what Bruise is talking about. It irks me to no end when I go over to one of the two (and only two) racks for squating or power cleaning and find some pinhead using the bar and the mirrors to do curls. The whole gym is replete with machines and devices to work on their guns and build their "big bird" bodies, but they find it necessary to go to the sqat rack and clog it up with 10 sets of curls before they go clubbing. I've seen gyms that handle this by banning the use of these machines for anything but squats during peak hours. And I generally will gently suggest to such people that there are far better ways to work on their guns than using one of only two racks for something other than what they were intended for.

On the other hand... Most clubs such as AFFC are aware of the phenomena being discussed. I frankly don't want to come to a club that caters only to metrasexuals in heat, or knuckle-dragging 'roid users who like to show body parts off that I'd rather not have to look at, thank you very much. Rather than banning people from being in various areas, they create natural partitions which encourage like-minded people to cluster. At AFFC, there's a stairway in-between the machines and the free weights. The squat racks and the heaviest dumbbells are in the free weight area farthest from the stairway partition, whereas the situp and side bend area is in the machine area farthest from stairway partition. All the myriad freeweight and machine devices dedicated to working on arms (biceps and triceps) are closest to it - a place where meek and the buff can mingle. The stairmasters, treadmills, and eliptical trainers are actually on an open, suspended second floor. Then the aerobics, yoga, martial arts, and pilates are done in rooms at the perimeter with glass doors. It's all an "open" environment, where one area can be seen by another if you really want to look. Otherwise like kind can cluster. This creates IMO a very healthy dynamic. And I mean it, Mike, when I tell you I want to see you get your arse down there. You don't have to do Uechi to get in the gym. And I'd work with you and/or your wife any day. I guarantee you'd find a place and a time to make your workout productive and pleasant.

The other thing they do a good job of at my gym is to get people to use on-staff trainers. This is a way to get folks to tailor a workout to their specific needs, and to teach people how to use the equipment properly. That stops the newbies from clogging up a squat rack, and prevents the knuckleheads from breaking the expensive but highly effective Strive machines. They even partition an area of the floor off for circuit training for the "busy business people" who only want to come in for half an hour to burn a few calories and look buff in their business suits.

Martial arts schools take note. You can run your dojos the same way. I learned while teaching at U.Va. how to have one Physical Education class (for credit) where most people wanted to come in just for a semester of karate. They could talk about it at cocktail hour, and lose a few pounds while at it. I made sure I worked their asses off - as they wanted - and also managed to teach them a generic version of martial arts which they could take to any school they wanted. For anyone who wanted to stay, there was the club where the more serious worked out. This is what I aimed for. However the large PE classes were what kept the whole organization going. Not only that, but they were full of good and interesting people whom to this day I still know and keep in contact with.

There's a way to make it work. There's no need to justify segregation when life is so much more interesting learning from and being entertained by each other.

- Bill

[MikeK]

To start with, folks should know that I know Mike K personally. He shows up in our Uechi class on a very rare occasion. He has his other martial pursuits as well. As to why he gets upset at grunters and heavy lifters in the gym, this I've never quite understood. This isn't Mike's first thread on this as I recall.

Boy, I get back from working out at the Y and I'm now informed that I have an issue and I'm upset with people who grunt. You're going to have to show me my first anti-grunting thread Bill as I don't remember it.
As an example on how I feel about the grunting situation let's clarify why I have been to Bill's Uechi class only rarely; Uechi is great, Bill is one of the best proponents of Uechi, Rich is an excellent teacher and Chef is cool as all heck, I've even recommended Bill to several people, but Uechi training wasn't what I wanted or needed at the time. I also had another option that I preferred instead of training in Uechi at Bill's. This doesn't mean that Uechi training is bad, or that Bill is bad but merely that I exercised my freedom of choice. I have a preference and have a place to train the way I like to train. Same as those people who preferred training in a "grunt-free" gym.

Now if I stayed, ignored Bill's rules for his school and decided to train in the way that I preferred during his class then I doubt I would be welcome there for very long. So I ended up happy, Bill is happy and his class is happy. See what results can happen by offering options and letting people have a choice? Grunting man would not be happy having lights and a siren going off every time he grunted, the gyms customers wouldn't be happy with grunting man going off, and the owner would have been unhappy with so many unhappy customers.

Let's review back to page 1...

IMO the goal is to get people(skinny, fat, young & old) into the gym, get them working out and getting them healthy. If some grunting muscle head is keeping them out of the gym and someone offers a gym that's "grunt free", then they should be applauded and not made fun of.

If the market will support it then offer a choice. I do apologize for using the term "muscle head" as it could offend some.

Let's review back to page 2 to see my opinion on the subject.

To me, this is about someone joining a gym because it was cheap and convenient but decided to disregard the rules. He could have joined a gym where grunting is the norm but he didn't, he wanted cheap and convenient. BTW I don't think anybody is afraid of a man grunting but has a preference not to be distracted by it. Same if someone joins one martial arts school over another, it's a preference.

That preference thing again.

[Bill Glasheen]

You're missing my point as well, Mike.

You may be my guest at the AFFC gym any time you want - to do weights. Or machines. Or whatever.

I'm well aware of the "Y" gyms in the city. I visted several of them when I first moved to the area. The one in Twin Hickory is new, so wasn't in consideration. I was actually in discussion with the people at the Tuckahoe Y about teaching there. I ruled out teaching at the downtown Y because - at the time - it had a reputation as being an area for gays to meet each other (in the showers). There was enough of that seamy activity going on in the UVa Memorial Gym locker rooms (I could tell you some creepy stories...), and I didn't want to be associated with it.

But AFFC was just getting started, and I liked their chemistry better. I also simultaneously started teaching at Raintree Swim and Racquet Club. Ultimately I devoted all my time to AFFC when it appeared they were more serious about our relationship.

Again... You need to be my guest some time in the weight and fitness areas. If you pick the right times, it's a great place to go. There's no reason to close any doors in life. Your networks and relationships are the most important things going for you.

- Bill

[Bruise* Lee]

This thread has been fascinating and very revealing.

On the one hand, I know what Bruise is talking about. The whole gym is replete with machines and devices to work on their guns and build their "big bird" bodies, but they find it necessary to go to the sqat rack and clog it up with 10 sets of curls before they go clubbing. - Bill

Its very hard to convince anyone who does this that they will get bigger arms by not specifically working their arms ; in other words just do basic lifts such as military, deadlifts, pull ups, squat, and bench (I list it last as I feel it is waaaayyy overemphasized). The big five plus some ab work is all you need