For those who don't like the tsssst...

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MikeK
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For those who don't like the tsssst...

Post by MikeK »

I offer this version of Sanchin(?).

Enjoy. :D
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Holy crap, Batman! :lol: :lol:

I knew what I was in for when I scanned the other posts from the same individual. I've had personal experience with schools who "adopt" Sanchin in their chop suey mish-mash of kata and exercises that they call martial arts. My first karate style was a teacher in search of a base of kata. He picked up and dropped kata like a Hollywood actor does spouses. "Sanchin" was part of this journey. And I was embarassed to see what they did with it. I remember once talking with Ray Berry when someone from an unknown style started doing Sanchin this way in a gym. Ray almost walked over and slapped the person. He couldn't contain his reaction.

I'm sure the people who do Sanchin this way have their reasons, and might be quite upset at my assessment.

I've done myriad versions of Uechi Sanchin, Okinawan Goju Sanchin (Shorei Kai), and "chop suey" Sanchin. So it's fair to say I have a broad perspective.

There are many, many different ways to breathe. My mantra is that the breathing should reflect the movement, and vice versa. It's part of what Sanchin means, and what it is all about. We are supposed to get body, mind, and spirit to combine in a synergistic way, hence the name "three battles."

To start with... If you have a good ear, you will hear that there is a mix of breathing types in the room. One fellow is suffering from an asthma attack in his Sanchin. Most of the rest are doing fairly standard Goju style (dragon, resistance) breathing.

Next... I get a few self-described experts upset when I say this, but I stand by what I say. Having instrumented dogs in the dog lab, done a dissertation on cardiopulmonary rhythms, and practiced Goju Sanchin, I have a leg (or two) to stand on here. In short, one must resist BOTH the inhale and the exhale. You resist the inhale by sniffing, and exhale by hissing. This creates a net zero intrapleural pressure, which keeps one from elevating average arterial pressure. The waxing and waning (yin and yang) effect also maximizes the mechanical and neural effects on circulation and medullary cardiopulmonary regulation. Done a little less melodramatically, the proper method in today's jargon is called "autogenic breathing." It is used to mitigate the survival stress response when anticipating a life-threatening event. I also use it to help my son deal with math anxiety. ;)

And finally... IMO it's a really dumb idea to associate EVERY move with exhaling. This totally goes against several of the body's flinch (low road) responses. Whenever your high road training conflicts with low road response, you are doing something which is going to create havoc when the poop hits the rotating blade. My Goju Sanchin instructor was a Green Beret, and I liked his explanations for when to inhale and when to exhale. And ultimately we want to learn how to breathe "naturally" (natural = it depends on what you are doing) while doing kata. Doing things which stop you from exhale blending into inhale blending into exhale is doing something which also will interfere with motion.

These kinds of concepts can be difficult to teach, but they aren't impossible. When all else fails, stop listening to the experts and start listening to your body under various physiologic states. We're already mostly equipped with what it takes to breathe right under all conditions. The best thing we can do is to learn how not to f*** it up.

Oh and by the way, Mike, I would be tempted personally to remove that one "moaner" from my gym if I had to listen to that when weight lifting. I pretty much am a "live and let live" person, but that would be about as grating as the guys who use spandex to show off their packages in the weight room. Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!! (Makes me think of the movie Dodgeball where the guy had an air pump prosthesis to make up for what nature didn't give him under the spandex. :lol: )

- Bill
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

It is entertaining in it's own weird sort of way. :lol: I love the breathing method that uses the same sound as I once did after drinking too much and eating Mexican food. Good points on breathing.


A kata
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

You mean the sounds you hear from someone stinking up the restroom, no?

Oh my god, Mike, this is worse than I thought. :lol: Their instructor with the bushy hair even has them grunt-breathing when turning their heads to change direction. And how about those windups? :lol: Talk about telegraphing your movement. 8O

I would love to teach these guys my Fuzhou Suparinpei, and watch them try to screw it up. They absolutely would never finish the form.

Yes, entertaining for sure. 8)

The problem with these displays of questionable power and breathing is that it's obvious they have no idea what they are doing in their kata. It's a shame. These kinds of performances are the fuel for the kata-hating, reality-based critics of traditional martial arts.

At least Mr. Bushy is buff. But that has nothing to do with his kata. He'd be better off staying in the weight room.

- Bill
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Post by MikeK »

Bill, Check out his routine.

I am impressed that he can do this but I don't understand why he does it.
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fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

Wow, that dude is a MACHINE! :lol:
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Post by MikeK »

Super Power, Super PowerSuper Power Oh the heck with it.

You have to be alert at all times
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fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

:lol:

RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Thats kind of freaky you know..... thier breathing.
MikeK
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Bowing in has never been so cool...

Post by MikeK »

and meaningful. Rei!

The guy has some skills but I don't see them translated into the students to any large degree.

[/url]
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Post by fivedragons »

I like this guy. He can kick ass and he has the ability to laugh at himself, as evidenced in two of the clips so far. Not only that, but he actually left it in the clip.

I bet he is a totally mellow and cool person.

Hard to be uptight and negative after doing all that. :lol:
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Mills75
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Just a thought

Post by Mills75 »

Not to argue the point of breathing because all have their way that they believe in and that's more than fine and I respect the things said above but I feel the tsst method while performing sanchin and making it audible consciously trains the body to breath properly in the abdomen in the diaphragmatic way. I feel doing sanchin in this way gets a student to focus and change his pattern of breathing over time from the high chest to deep abdomen. I'm not talking about how the guy in the clip does it because in all honesty I didn't view it. I mean the overall tsst method I actually agree with and prefer for what I want. I feel just in my humble opinion it's the best way to get a person to consciously focus on and change their pattern of breathing. I also agree with this article below that I found that relates western posture to high chest breathing and think this is what makes the tsst method even more important for American or North American students as a whole. Again just my humble opinion and not meant to argue or cause controversy.



Optimal Method of Breathing
by Dr. Jacob Jordan

We have seen that mind and body are intertwined. Just as the mind moves the body, the body can move the mind. The key aspect of physiologic control of the mind is breath control. Respiration is truly the mirror of the psycho-physiologic state. While many people have developed a proverbial "poker face" with little clues to their emotions portrayed as facial expressions, their true mental state is always reflected in their breathing pattern. Anger is characterized by rapid breaths with forced exhalations. Anxiety is demonstrated by an erratic, fitful breathing pattern with breaths taken from high in the chest. While respiration reflects your emotional and physiologic state, it can also be utilized to change the state within seconds.

In the Western world we have been taught to breathe from high in the chest. This stems from the Western ideal of proper posture characterized by a puffed out chest with the stomach sucked in. Take a moment and assume this position. Notice how much energy is expended maintaining this posture. Hold this position for any length of time and soon you will notice how much tension is present. Maintain this position for fifteen to twenty minutes and fatigue will soon follow. While the martial arts teaches us to breathe from the abdomen, with states of tension, fear and anxiety, most students soon revert back to the shallow thoracic (chest) breaths which serve only to perpetuate sub-optimal states. In order to fully comprehend proper breath control, the mechanics of respiration must be understood.

The diaphragm is the primary muscle of respiration. This is the large, flat muscle separating the abdominal from the chest cavities. The diaphragm contracts thus lengthening the chest cavity creating a vacuum which draws air into the lungs. The secondary or so called accessory muscles of respiration include the intercostal muscles (between the ribs), and to a lesser extent, the neck muscles. The accessory muscles function to increase the anterior-posterior diameter of the chest cavity as well as to lift and spread the rib cage.

With good "Western" posture we use our accessory musculature to lift the chest. Using the accessory muscles without proper use of the diaphragm serves to keep air high in the chest and does not expand the lungs to their capacity. A normal thoracic breath draws only 500 to 700 cc of air in the average adult. This results in less efficient oxygen delivery to your circulatory system and subsequently less potential for physical action. On the other hand, a deep, abdominal breath typically draws 2500cc to 3000cc of air, expanding the entire lungs for optimal oxygen delivery.

Proper Respiration


With this background we can now approach the process of proper respiration. Normal, quiet respiration uses only the diaphragm. This is what is termed abdominal breathing. The chest is kept completely still and the accessory muscles are not utilized. This is the proper way to breathe. It is the way infants normally breathe before they become conditioned and are taught "proper posture." It is the way a cat or other predatory animal breathes when stealthily stalking game.

Breathing should be accomplished by allowing the abdomen to inflate like a balloon creating the sensation of air being pulled deep into the lower body. When you have reached a maximum comfortable breath, press the air even further down towards the pelvis by tensing the abdomen slightly. Expiration is then accomplished in a gradual, controlled manner. Keeping slight tension in the abdominal muscles, the air is slowly released. The accessory muscles should come into play only when winded, contracting only after a full diaphragmatic breath has been accomplished. The accessory muscles are then utilized to expand and lift the chest to more fully inflate the very top portions of the lungs.

All breathing should be done through the nose with the exception of when vocalizing as when a martial artist performs a kiai. Nose breathing is most efficient for oxygen delivery and preserves the moisture of the airways. This becomes extremely important when involved in lengthy, dehydrating workouts.

Benefits of Proper Respiration


Proper respiration has four major benefits for the martial artist. First, through a neuro-physiologic feedback loop, it keeps the mind calm and "grounded." Just try to become extremely angry or hysterical while taking slow, deep, abdominal breaths. It simply cannot be done. In competitive or confrontational situations, some athletes become so anxious and hyperactive that they are bouncing off the walls. This is the sympathetic nervous system in action. An activated sympathetic nervous system releases a flood of adrenaline resulting in the "fight or flight" response. The adrenaline surge is taxing on both the body and the mind wasting enormous energy reserves.

Deep, abdominal breathing with slight tension in the abdomen dampens the sympathetic response in favor of the parasympathetic nervous system. The parasympathetic nervous system fosters relaxation, lowering of the pulse, slowing of respiration and conservation of energy. You are then able to respond to a threat appropriately rather than reacting anxiously. The preservation of energy reserves with parasympathetic system dominance becomes very important in endurance activities.

Secondly, proper breathing allows superior oxygen exchange in the lungs resulting in improved muscle performance during activity requiring maximal effort. Third, keeping the breath low in the abdomen automatically keeps your center of gravity low for improved balance. The fourth and probably the most important quality of proper respiration is its ability to assist in keeping the mind focused on the present moment. This will be discussed in detail in Chapter Three.


Developing the habit of diaphragmatic breathing takes considerable practice. It has taken years to condition your breathing to your current pattern so don't expect miraculous changes overnight. It will take time to condition your body back to the normal respiration that it knew as an infant, but it will be well worth the effort.


Summary of the Benefits of Proper Respiration

Calms the mind by calming the body

Allows superior oxygen exchange

Lowers the center of gravity for better balance

Enhances focus



Third, keeping the breath low in the abdomen automatically keeps your center of gravity low for improved balance.

This particular point above also seems at least to me to be another good reason for the tsst method of not exhaling on force. Exhaling after the force is exerted seems at least in my humble opinion to go better with this above because you would not want to be off balance while striking. Just a small observation from the article and just a thought but to me it seems to go with what he's saying of having the breath in order to keep your center.



Jeff
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jeff

To start with, you are welcome and encouraged to contribute. Thanks! 8)

Second, be warned that any discussion of breathing in the past has caused some to hyperventillate. Why? IMHO it isn't that any one method discussed is wrong. Rather it's the "That's not Uechi!" syndrome. Frankly I think any time someone says this, you should give them a good swift lifting kick in the balls and then say "That's not Uechi either!" :wink: The line should be removed from our general discourse because frankly a large portion of those who practice Uechi haven't the foggiest idea of the extent to which their Uechi applies when they fight, spar, or cross train in other arts or RBSD methods.

************

The article you posted is a good one. However its primary function is to teach people diaphragmatic breathing. Virtually every breathing method I know of (worth talking about) teaches this. Our own shinko kyu in the junbi undo (a.k.a. autogenic breathing) involves the same basic pattern, although it adds in intercostal and shoulder breathing on top of the core diaphragmatic breathing.

So... Could you tell me what else the "tssst" method offers that is unique and contributes to fighting and self defense? I didn't quite follow your logic towards the end.

I will keep the dogs at bay, Jeff. I happily use many breathing methods (including this one) so don't particularly have a dog in the fight. My goal is to get everyone who has a favorite method to think about and articulate why it is they do what they do.

Thanks.

- Bill
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Jeff,

Good to revisit this aspect of our training, and always interesting comments by Bill. We have been around this ‘bend of the road’ over and over. :lol:

If your teacher says “you are not breathing Uechi” when you dare to breathe with effort, or differently _ ask him “why do you breathe [tsst] after the strike”. Wait for the answer.

Chances are he will tell you:

1. because if you breathe with the strike you are losing your chi_
2. Because that’s the way it is done and the way we have always done it.


Oh well...the answer should speak for itself... :wink:

As you practice a breathing pattern keep in mind what your goals are: ‘what needs to be accomplished and why’.

As you can infer form bill’s posts _ the ‘hissing’ [tsst] is not the problem_ it is the timing of it that needs to be looked at.

Breathing patterns in martial arts practice have the objective of making you perform with ‘decisive_ defensive action’ among other reaction components_ Action is the key word.And ‘decisive’ also means powerful [stopping power] _

From Shimabuku sensei
Breath control was used to increase power, the student exhaling as force was needed. The purpose of the exercise was to teach cultivation of ki (inner energy).

Shimabuku called ki by its Okinawan term, chinkuchi, which means sinew, bone and energy. He perfected his chinkuchi, which made his techniques exceptionally strong. "You can't hold (chinkuchi) or keep it; it is brought out when and where you need it," Shimabuku said.
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Post by Van Canna »

And no matter what the method, students must keep on breathing in between the ‘breathing spaces’ if you follow my metaphor. You must learn to breathe as needed, in_ out _ or anyway you wish_ with your moves and even your thoughts.

What is also important to teach is _ to breathe as the body needs it , and not stop breathing while not throwing punches and kicks etc.

In other words, there should always be an unimpeded flow of breath at all times with the choice of exploding it as one feels comfortable to augment power or not_ depending on performance level and personal beliefs or comfort.

And there is a proper way to exhale. ‘Huffing and puffing’ is not a proper exhale. Many think that the exhale should be a throat grunt, they don’t have a clue.
Van
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