Sorry, another no-touch video

[Rick Wilson]

"I hate to say it but my Sanchin changes all the time "

Just as it should Ray because you are learning all the time -- that is just the proof that you are. I am in agreement totally.

[Bill Glasheen]

I've been traveling a bit. Interesting to see this thread evolve as it has.

A few comments...

I am not impressed with the Juko Ryu groin shots. To start with, I've done the groin shots (received them) on demos quite a bit, and have taught people how to do it. If someone wants to stand nude in front of a good kicker and claim to be able to take testicular shots, well go right ahead. But generally the testicles aren't even involved in these demos.

A Uechika should be able to take a "shot to the groin" essentially by stopping the foot with the adductor muscles. I actually had to do this in real life with a crazy woman once. Trust me, there's nothing more dangerous than a woman who wants to take your nuts out. The fact that my voice is still baritone speaks to this working.

There are other ways to make this work even more dramatically. I had a fraternity brother and judoka friend who had the ability to pop his testicles up the inguinal canal. There are all kinds of unusual people on this earth. We were sitting in a sauna once (in the training room at University Hall) and he demonstrated his ability to do it. I imagine he could put on quite a show if he wanted to.

So... Why do these crazy demos? They allow you to "one up" the dojo down the street, and sign up a few more people than they do.

These days, the MMA matches take a lot of the "mystery" out of this stuff.

The neck shots aren't all that impressive either. Tomoyose Sensei used to demonstrate his ability to do them. I happen to have a strong neck from a combination of genetics and training. No biggie... However, I'll pick and choose where/how someone hits me there, thank you. We aren't invulnerable.

As to the Uechi training of the forearms and shins, well it isn't the crazy "out there" stuff Ray makes it out to be. It reduces the incidence of injuries in the dojo - period. Nothing is 100%. Sledgehammers and bullets (really now... ) have nothing to do with anything. Any contact activity instructor (including American football) is a fool not to do contact training. It makes the body stronger, and teaches us how to neutralize energy. It isn't a lot different than judoka, jiujitsu, and aikido people practicing their ukemi. Whether by fist, foot, or high speed dirt, it's all the same.

And on that note... One of my goals of ukemi training in my dojo is to train people not to fear the ground. I teach them that there's life after falling, and teach them how to get back up on their feet as quickly and smoothly as possible. I show them that they can even fall on hard floors and get back up again. Teaching that to students just makes sense if you care about reducing their risk of injury. And it can instill quite a bit of confidence in someone who likely will get the &#^$ beat out of them in a gang surprise attack before realizing they aren't dead and they have a vote in the matter.

Even against a firearm, you're a fool to think it's all over after you've been shot. If you're still conscious, you still have the ability to take out your tormenter - even if you eventually will die. Many stories have been written about brave soldiers and LEOs who fought on after having been shot multiple times. Grossman spends quite a bit on the subject in On Combat, and basically tells would be warriors (in so many words) not to be pussies and to carry on until safe or done.

On the flip side, don't go thinking that a BG will fall just like in the movies if you shoot them. Maybe they will if they think that's what they're supposed to do, or if they decide they don't want more bullets in them. Maybe you'll get a lucky shot. But usually a few bullets out of anything smaller than a .45 are just going to slow a BG down.

Nothing is 100% either on the giving or the receiving end. Our martial arts training is only about changing the odds a bit in our favor.

Finally... All of this contact work has to be taken with a grain of salt. Ideally we get off the line of force, or neutralize the intent to attack. If there's an easy way out, well go for it. And dwelling on any kind of contact work can give people the idea that a fight ain't a fight unless you get banged. Against a blade, that's not such a smart idea.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"As to the Uechi training of the forearms and shins, well it isn't the crazy "out there" stuff Ray makes it out to be"I beg to differ. One of the reasons that I have been put off it for so long is seeing all the crazy off the wall stuff. If it had been explained to me in the first place the way Ian explained it, I wouldn't have had such a problem with it ...........and to be honest I don't think that it is a biggy, I think that it should be a minor part of training. I work with two guys one is 5ft nothing the other is 6ft 7ins, I'd hate for the big guy to give the little guy a serious Sanchin test
with martial arts there tends to be very few folks asking questions ............asking what benefit will this be to me? or why do I do this? or would this be effective?
Folks turn up at a club to learn self defence, then immediately they become part of a group which they must be loyal to, and defend against any critscism.................when in fact the group is not giving them what they came for
As to Juko-Ryu stuff, the kick to the groin is what sanchin Dachi is designed to stop isn't it?
It is entertaining to watch, but I think anything like that you have to be very carefull

[Bill Glasheen]

Ian is my student, Ray. I should hope between my training and his specialty in internal medicine that he knows what he's doing when practicing kotekitae (forearm conditioning) and ashikitae (leg conditioning). It's actually more complex than he explained it, but then he's just giving the view from 10,000 feet.

Just with forearm conditioning...

• There is the art of contracting the muscles at the right moment to create an elastic collision (energy totally reflected). Whenever I get a smartass newbie in the class, I'll ask that person to hit my forearm or stomach as hard as they can. I love seeing those pupils dilate at the moment of contact...
• Any kind of conditioning like this creates layers of connective tissue over vulnerable areas which serve to protect them. That's what happens when you play guitar and your finger tips thicken. It's our body's natural ability to adapt to its environment. All we're doing with the rubbing, rolling, and striking is creating the same processes over areas likely to bruise, or over nerves likely to be stimulated in a way which compromises our game plan.
• Bone is a piezoelectric substance, and osteoblasts deposit calcium along the lines of current. That's a fancy way of saying that forearm conditioning will make your bones stronger. This isn't rocket science. We already tell people at risk of osteoporosis to do weight-bearing exercise to build and preserve their bone mineral density.
• Conditioning causes the body to release endorphins, and we can actually get better at doing that. Endorphins change our perceptions in ways that make it possible to do things that are otherwise unpleasant. They are nature's own drugs. That's why people get addicted to exercise (a.k.a. "runners high"). We still know we are getting hit, but we learn not to let it distract us from what we need to do. With training, we learn to tell the difference between "good pain" and "bad pain." Neither will distract us as much, but knowing what will help and what will harm will teach us to reach peak performance faster. That takes practice.
• Any of this stuff can be done alone in some way. But doing this with partners while doing karate techniques (striking, moving, sensing, etc.) gives us the opportunity to tie those lessons to a martial context. The benefits of that can't easily be overstated.

Conditioning is NECESSARY for practicing a martial art like Uechi Ryu.

Sanchin "testing" is a different subject. There are myriad positions and approaches on this. One description most certainly does not fit all.

It is NOT necessary to create some strawman scenario and then declare all Uechika do such stupid things. It's a particularly weak tactic, Ray, when you haven't been practicing the art very long, nor have you gotten around and actually seen how people who post here do their Uechi. I've invited you to camp before, and all I get back is "Fine, if you pay for it." That's a sure formula for remaining as a Uechi Mushroom - staying in the dark and being fed schit by your peers.

We're all happy to enlighten you to how each of us approaches the subject, Ray. It isn't necessary to assume when you have a permanent invitation to get the facts. And you know everyone here is willing to share.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"It is NOT necessary to create some strawman scenario and then declare all Uechika do such stupid things. It's a particularly weak tactic, Ray, when you haven't been practicing the art very long, nor have you gotten around and actually seen how people who post here do their Uechi. I've invited you to camp before, and all I get back is "Fine, if you pay for it." That's a sure formula for remaining as a Uechi Mushroom - staying in the dark and being fed schit by your peers."

Bill
I have seen a fair bit of Uechi in my country, some good, some bad...........and I have freely admitted that the conditioning that I have seen was of the dickhead variety.You can still see a fair bit of that if you look around the net
As to the strawman argument, it isn't one .I've already said that I can see the value in conditioning ( now).but let us be honest if we are attacked it is likely to be by a bigger stronger opponent, so although body conditioning may have some value, it is not a self defence system on it's own, and truth be told it must occupy a very secondary position to other skills.........................................................very nice of you to invite me to camp Bill, but I cannot afford it .maybe one day

[mhosea]

There is the art of contracting the muscles at the right moment to create an elastic collision (energy totally reflected). Whenever I get a smartass newbie in the class, I'll ask that person to hit my forearm or stomach as hard as they can. I love seeing those pupils dilate at the moment of contact...

Never thought of trying to develop this skill. Great party trick!

people who post here do their Uechi.

Maybe it would suffice to give Ray a description. I can give a beginner's perspective.

I've never thought much about it, because in fact I find most of it enjoyable and the clock has nothing to do with it, but I'd guess we spend less than 10 minutes on conditioning in each class. The beauty of these partner drills is that you dial them into the level of intensity that you need to make progress. Most of the bumps and bruises I've gotten in Uechi which have taken noticeable time to heal have come from slight misfires in yakusoku kumite practice, e.g. bone-on-bone shin contact.

Although I don't remember leg or ab conditioning, forearm conditioning was an even bigger deal in Matsubayashi-Ryu, with about the same or slightly less emphasis on toughening the muscle sheaths and much more emphasis on hardening the relatively unprotected bone on each side of the arm just above the wrist. This conditioning is required for practicing that style, as the area is used quite often.

[jorvik]

Well I am not knocking "conditioning" .I say fine do it ...all I'm saying is where does it fit into the total picture .ok you have tough arms, and tough shins.but I am going to hit you in the head ...and I have not seen Uechi folks using their hard arms, they tend to do Wa-ukes, so why harden the arms what is the point....I say hit bags because you will need to hit people, I say keep a good guard up coz they will try to hit you and I say move because a moving target is a heck of a lot harder to hit than a stationary one.Ok it ain't rocket science, but there is reason and thought and not a little experience behind it....I went to one school ( goju not Uechi) and the guy said get into a "Good" stance, so I got into a boxers crouch ,good guard and statred to move on my toes.......dude said NO!!! a good stance ..what he meant was a sissy stance hands on my hips legs so far apart that I could only kick off my back leg, and then I had to stomp around like this and attack folks who where 20 feet away with a punch off the hip
he was a fool ...but there are lots of them about ( I'm not knocking anybody here )..............but you see my point, I hope

[Bruise* Lee]

1) I am not impressed with the Juko Ryu groin shots. To start with, I've done the groin shots (received them) on demos quite a bit, and have taught people how to do it. If someone wants to stand nude in front of a good kicker and claim to be able to take testicular shots, well go right ahead. 2) But generally the testicles aren't even involved in these demos.

3) A Uechika should be able to take a "shot to the groin" essentially by stopping the foot with the adductor muscles. I actually had to do this in real life with a crazy woman once. Trust me, there's nothing more dangerous than a woman who wants to take your nuts out. The fact that my voice is still baritone speaks to this working.

4) There are other ways to make this work even more dramatically. I had a fraternity brother and judoka friend who had the ability to pop his testicles up the inguinal canal. There are all kinds of unusual people on this earth. We were sitting in a sauna once (in the training room at University Hall) and he demonstrated his ability to do it. I imagine he could put on quite a show if he wanted to.

5) These days, the MMA matches take a lot of the "mystery" out of this stuff.

Quite a telling post about you Bill.

1) Wow that is much more homoerotic than I would have imagined of you. I can remember several times people asking to get one of us naked and hit us in the groin - if someone doubted the efficacy of Kote Gaeshi to actually throw someone (uke is actually "jumping"), and wanted me to throw them while I was naked to prove it worked- well I would laugh at them and refuse - I would never be that eager to prove any technique worked.

2) Not true. They are not involved in your method of taking a shot to the "groin" obviously, but not true of Juko ryu demos. I have to admit on the most basic level the buttocks can absorb some impact in a front kick, as the toes often impact the buttocks first, and by the time the instep hits the groin some of the force can be dissipated. But Sacharnoski and others often have students train in wide Kiba Dachis to avoid this type of cheating. The Combat Ki is sincerely taught as a self defense method, believe it or not obviously, because getting kicked in the nuts is a strong possibility in a fight. Sacharnoski tried to be reality based, - also with punches to the groin the impact REALLY hits the nuts squarely. Or when you take the kick to the groin as a counter kick, with your legs spread and extended kicking at someones head.

Over the years I have heard many people postulate all sorts of fakery - probably based on methods of trickery they themselves have tried - taping the testicles up, etc. And whom wanted to get us naked and feel our testicles etc. As I tell everyone else, none of that sort of trickery was used - but I really don't care enough to satisfy the haters to give them the opportunity to cop a free feel of my testicles.

3) Such cheating does not help develop the actual technique. Also a kick to the adductors or even the TAINT can hurt quite alot. Having your testicles pulled up does not protect your willy, your pubic one or even the soft muscles. Bill will do what Bill does, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that - but for all those thousands of others who read this, if you are concerned at all with taking shots to all parts of the body, with that sort of body conditioning (and I am not advocating it) - cheating does not pay off in the long run.

4) again testicles are only one of the structures and tissues that can be injured - and again wow, what a story. Note to self - no saunas with Bill and his friends

5) Juko Kai had several people who fared quite well - in its hey day in MMA events. MMA type events were very popular with Juko ryu people in the 60's and 70's. The last Juko Ryu person I knew winning an event was Randy Marvel (yes his real name) who won a MMA event hosted by Dan the beast Severn around 1998 - that was the last time I was involved with Juko Kai.

As this topic is bringing out the uglier side of Bil, this is my last post on the topic

[TSDguy]

This thread is getting pretty erotic!

Anywho, what is the danger of a ruptured testicle? I've heard the phrase, and it makes sense, but is this a real danger from taking a good groin shot? I'm fine with sucking up some pain, but I don't want my testicles splattered all over my boxers for the sake of a demonstration.

[jorvik]

quote
"As this topic is bringing out the uglier side of Bil, this is my last post on the topic"


No!! stay in there .if you can take a kick into the gonads.............then this is water off a duck's back ..It's fun baiting Bill .we all do it .and you do have a valid point....something that folks have to disprove, rather than knock
and we all want to do what you do, at the end of the day

[MikeK]

Never thought of trying to develop this skill. Great party trick!

Party trick my kiester Mike, that skill has saved my bacon a few times when I've screwed up. Matter of fact I used it today as a last ditch defense when I misread someones attack.

[gmattson]

Very interesting subject... as usual... discussing what I call "extreme" training.

Is Jukukai full contact hits to what are considered "very vulnerable/sensitive" areas of the body real or some kind of trickery?

My opinion is that they are real! There just isn't any way they could safely pull off these feats with trickery.

Now, this isn't to say that quite a few people haven't accomplished the feats using trickery. They certainly have. But the videos I've seen of Jukukai people performing these feats, I would have to say they are taking/absorbing what we see them taking and absorbing.

OK. Lets look at the facts. (of course as I see them)

1. I was raised on a farm as a kid. We castrated hundreds of hogs a year. I remember trying to take one of the removed testicles and placing it on a board, then attempting to crush it with a hammer. Couldn't do it. And I tried quite a few times. The damn thing kept bouncing off the board, out of the way.

2. Now I did crush one by placing a board over the testicle and slowly pushing down on it.

3. Hmmmmmm

4. Is it possible that a fast kick or punch will fail to accomplish something that a simpler grab and squeeze will do?

Now I will turn the discussion back to the engineers, doctors and other experts here, hoping they will look at this one feat of trying (and failing) to crush the testicles with a fast kick as something that might be explained as being painful (I know it is painful!) but not something that will not crush the jewels.

5. As a 15 year old boy, I pretended to be a baseball catcher and offered to catch for our high school best pitcher. After a few minutes of warm up, he started to throw fast balls. No trouble. Then fast curve balls. The first one hit me square in the forehead! I expected to be knocked out.... everyone watching ran over expecting me to be killed.... I didn't feel anything other than a sting.

I'm sure there is a good explanation, but no one at the time could figure out why I wasn't hurt.

Now I probably could go on tour, having people hit me in the head with baseball bats or fast balls and continue to amaze people. On the other hand maybe I was just lucky and maybe the next one would kill me.

I mention this because many things circus performers and karate performers did 30-50 years ago amazed and mystified audiences. Just how in the hell did that guy break five boards with his kick?

With time, someone will come up with a logical explanation for everything the Jukukai people are doing. Meanwhile, I'm impressed and mystified!

[Bill Glasheen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that we were having a serious discussion about Juko Ryu training.

If we're going to have a serious forum, then it makes sense to avoid the homoerotic comments. I can understand it from someone not educated in a medical field. I do however find it a bit puzzling to see a medical professional acting in such a fashion.

<Sigh...>

FWIW, the condition I spoke of above is called retractile testes. It's something that some boys and men are capable of, and requires no treatment.

This is in contrast to the condition called cryptorchidism, where one or both testes are absent from the scrotum. In that case, the individual generally requires surgery (orchiopexy) to help the testes descend. Without such surgery, the individual could be infertile (if both testes are undescended) and is at higher risk for testicular cancer.

I still maintain that such demonstrations are tricks. That's why I suggested that one perform it nude. For those who do not believe me, I refer them to this e-medicine article on Testicular Trauma. Basically it states that most of the times when struck the testicles are capable of moving around and thus avoid permanent injury. But given the right condition - something you want at all cost to avoid - the injury could result in loss of one or both testes, loss of fertility, and loss of hormonal production.

You can choose to believe what you want to believe. However you have been warned.

- Bill

[Willy]

I remember trying to take one of the removed testicles and placing it on a board, then attempting to crush it with a hammer.

Now your scarring me George!

Good point !

[Stryke]

ok you have tough arms, and tough shins.but I am going to hit you in the head ...and I have not seen Uechi folks using their hard arms, they tend to do Wa-ukes, so why harden the arms what is the point...

I use my forearms for impact probably more than any other weapon , with all the bridging,impacting etc , its akin to swinging a lead pipe after a while . ?

I think it`s totally Uechi all the hooking and dragging and hand positions all take on a new flavour if your using them to control after you hit with the forearms .

conditioning is vital IMHO , your subconcious will only let you impart as much froce as your weapons can handle IMHO .