Reality vs. Sport fighting

[Dave Young]

I recently read an article posted in the Budo International Magazine titled...Real fighting vs sport fighting and you can tell that the author was trying to make some points but not from the reality side of the fence. More or less trying to justify how sport fighting does prepare you for a real fight.

What ever happened to the real information on saving lives and not the commercialization, life saving has become. To bad there isn't a law in which you can go to jail for teaching some of the BS that is being taught out there.[/i]

Here is the big difference between the traditional arts and the reality training we are providing and have been providing for over 20 years.

Traditional arts teach you many wonderful things...and they prepare you an encounter or attack which may happen....and in the reality world we prepare you the encounter and attack that [i]will happen. These two are very different, not only from the reaction side of this but from the mental and physical preparational sides as well.

As I mentioned before the new civilian martial arts program we are launching in Mar 07 will change the way professionals have viewed and practiced the arts for real self defense and protection in the streets, their homes and in the courtroom.

We have been training professional since 1984 in protecting their lives in both the streets, courtrooms and at home, and I am challenging the readers and fellow martial artists to make it a point to attend our training certification in Mount. Dora, FL March 26-28, 2007...

If they fail the testing we are conducting at the end of the program we will refund their money, if they get there and find out this is not the program for them we will refund their money, and if we do not teach them anything new, that they do not already know or can use in the streets right after they complete the program we will refund their money.

In self defense training when your own life or the lives of your loved ones are on the line, the ONLY guarantee one can give is their word and the successful achievement of that goal.

I am excited on our program and we will be presenting this at the MAAI conference in Las Vegas in July and in the Black belt Conference in LA for 2007. I hope to see you there.

Dave Young
Stay Strong, Stay Safe and Most Importantly STAY A LIVE!

[gmattson]

Training with "realism", practicing within spitting distance of the prisoners and working on drills that replicate actual situations often found within the walls of the prison.

Dave created many of today's "state of the art" programs now being taught throughout the world by dozens of trainers. He's not much of a media guy. . . preferring to just "doing it".

To watch him in action though and you know he is "the man" with the ability, tools and teaching expertise matched by few in the world.

We are indeed lucky to have him as a friend and advisor.

Last week Dave was winding down his very busy seminar schedule for 2006 with a RedMan training course for the Vero Beach prison guards. This particular course was designed specifically for the trainers who will be running programs at the prison on a regular basis.

Watching the program in action, it appeared to be geared as much for the students as the coaches. However Dave pointed out that although the students (those who wore lightweight gear) received lots of practice "drilling" the teachers with kicks, elbows and brutal takedowns, the focus of the training was on the instructors. (Those wearing the "big dog" suits!)

After two days of really serious and heavy training, Dave's emphasis on safety paid off. No one was injured and everyone came away from the training with a new appreciation for Dave's instruction and for the built-in protection offered by the RedMan equipment.

I spoke with Dave this morning about the program he has put together for martial artist that will be held in March. He has mentioned a number of times how important the basics are and if a dojo wants to get serious about training their students in "realism", this course is essential.

At camp last July, Dave spent quite a lot of time teaching the martial artist things that we never thought about before. . . basic things like How to hold a kicking shield so the person holding the shield won't get hurt. . . Things that most dojo and martial artists don't give a second thought to, Dave emphasized for the safety of the instructor (or partner) during class.

After spending a couple days with the Dave and really getting into the purpose, goals and philosophy of his basic course, I can relate to how important the RedMan equipment is to what makes his programs so effective and truly "realistic".

There are many reasons for taking Dave's course for martial artist in March. Any dojo considering offering "realist" training for civilians face legal issues government agencies must deal with on a regular basis. If an agency does any of this training, you can bet they will at a minimum, require a certification from a reputable organization. When a dojo instructor offers a self defense course, they often are completely unqualified to teach it. Should someone get injured, this teacher and the dojo will have a hard time explaining or justifying their actions.

Dave is offering us a way to address these complex and often overlooked problems and instead of trying to pass off some unrealistic and indefensible set of techniques to an unsuspecting audience, here is an opportunity to build a legitimate program to supplement your traditional program. . . A program that is responsible, reasonable and proven in the field.

Now that's a damn good reason for taking the initiative and getting that application back to the university.
http://uechi-[url]ryu.com/members/redman/register_RTS_2007.pdf[/url]

Click here to view a couple of clips from Dave's seminar at the prison. http://uechi-ryu.com/pages/redmanclips

[gmattson]

No one can be everything to everybody.

As you have been expounding the virtues of "realism", I've been attempting to preach the gospel of "core" martial arts (regardless of the style) not being the "end all" of training, but merely the foundation upon which the teacher and student must build upon, focusing on specializations suited to the individual.

Its foolish to believe that someone who has developed good balance, timing, many techniques, conditioning and some ability to perform under some pressure, will automatically be able to convert this into skills in the UFC, Navy Seals, Swat Team or any other type of program that requires specific and repeated training.

It is equally frustrating to hear people judge the traditional martial arts by measuring what a UFC player, Seal, Swat team member can do that a Uechi student can't do.

Conversely, I am frustrated (as is Van) by any TMA practitioner who "thinks" he can get in the same ring with a professional and fare well because of a misguided belief in his "shoken" or "death blow" power that can't be measured or debated because the only way it can be tested will result in the death of the other person!

Short sighted individuals in both camps are a pain in the ass and should stop trying to defend their indefensible positions.

[gmattson]

Here is one problem. Are we saying that traditional senseis teaching traditional karate's self defense applications that flow from the system, are not qualified to do so?

Some teachers will resent this implication_ NO?

I consider the "applications" to be part of the "core" program, but certainly not something that most "specialized" groups can count on.

Yes, teaching that the opening movement of our Crane block is an attack to the face or neck is fine, but without any other instruction or scenario applications, the technique is basically incomplete.

I'm not saying it won't work at any time, but the odds of it working in a field where lives depend on it, are minuscule.

Combined with specialty programs, geared to the needs of the group involved, TMA's core virtues will enhance and benefit the individual.

So... before anyone misreads that quote, understand what I've said...

[Van Canna]

Good post George, but I am not sure we are getting the point across.


In my past forums discussions about realism and the effects of the chemical cocktail shaping our response action physically and emotionally_ and my discussions on the value of modern combatives’ concepts mated to tradition_ I was always referring to the average martial artist produced by a dojo, and not to ‘specialized’ groups.

And it was precisely the ‘dojo trained group’ who felt dissed and wrote to you behind the scenes.

In reading your posts I get the impression, possibly the wrong one, that you are referring to Dave Young’s training as one for specialized groups, such as instructing police personnel_ as it was the previous failed attempt couple of years ago_ failure meaning _ no interest_

Dave states the following

Traditional arts teach you many wonderful things...and they prepare you an encounter or attack which may happen....and in the reality world we prepare you the encounter and attack that [i] will happen . These two are very different, not only from the reaction side of this but from the mental and physical preparational sides as well.

Here, when he refers to attacks that ‘will happen’ he may in fact be referring to specialized groups such as police, correct?

And

These two are very different, not only from the reaction side of this but from the mental and physical preparational sides as well

Will TMA read into this that their traditional training is deficient in preparing them physically and mentally?

Then we have

As I mentioned before the new civilian martial arts program we are launching in Mar 07 will change the way professionals have viewed and practiced the arts for real self defense and protection in the streets, their homes and in the courtroom.

The web can be a troublesome communication media with all kinds of misunderstandings, so it is essential that we are clear and clear again, and define and define again what we mean or try to sell.

For examp-le we have words such as ‘civilian martial arts program’ _ Civilian as opposed to what? Military? Police?

How many times have we seen the argument that as karate practitioners ‘we are not police/military’ etc. etc. _ meaning we don’t need to do any of this stuff_ what we practice happens to have self defense in it and it will be successful against the average street attack. This argument in response to my discussions of reality concepts_ NO?

will change the way professionals have viewed and practiced the arts for real self defense and protection in the streets, their homes and in the courtroom.

What defines ‘professionals’ in this context? Are we including a professional karate teacher running a dojo, as an example? And if so, isn’t this ‘professional’ catering to the average ‘Joe’ instead of specialized groups?

Do you see where the TMA practitioners may cloud?


And more so

We have been training professional since 1984 in protecting their lives in both the streets, courtrooms and at home, and I am challenging the readers and fellow martial artists to make it a point to attend our training certification in Mount. Dora, FL March 26-28, 2007...

So does this mean that the ‘fellow martial artist’ [us] will receive the same training that professionals have received since 1984, in order for the average karate practitioner to learn things that the Traditional practice does not provide?

Okay_ But will this training also include physical techniques and mindset issues that TMA does not provide?

In self defense training when your own life or the lives of your loved ones are on the line, the ONLY guarantee one can give is their word and the successful achievement of that goal.

I agree. But I bet many TMA teachers reading this will not like it, because they believe that it is all in their system and ‘mushin’ will take care of any problem, as we have been reminded before _ time and again.

I am intentionally being verbose and ‘needling’ so as to stimulate some conversation or this will remain another dead thread.

[Dave Young]

Good post George, but I am not sure we are getting the point across.

In my past forums discussions about realism and the effects of the chemical cocktail shaping our response action physically and emotionally_ and my discussions on the value of modern combatives’ concepts mated to tradition_ I was always referring to the average martial artist produced by a dojo, and not to ‘specialized’ groups. And it was precisely the ‘dojo trained group’ who felt dissed and wrote to you behind the scenes. In reading your posts I get the impression, possibly the wrong one, that you are referring to Dave Young’s training as one for specialized groups, such as instructing police personnel_ as it was the previous failed attempt couple of years ago_ failure meaning _ no interest_

Dave states the following

Traditional arts teach you many wonderful things...and they prepare you an encounter or attack which may happen....and in the reality world we prepare you the encounter and attack that will happen . These two are very different, not only from the reaction side of this but from the mental and physical preparational sides as well.

Here, when he refers to attacks that ‘will happen’ he may in fact be referring to specialized groups such as police, correct? -

[i] Yes and no Van...I am talking about personal attacks people getting robbed, beated, shot with guns stabbed with knives....I do believe that EVERYONE gets these types of attacks......if they don't then I want to live in their world....lol

And

These two are very different, not only from the reaction side of this but from the mental and physical preparational sides as well

Will TMA read into this that their traditional training is deficient in preparing them physically and mentally?

Van all training is lacking in one way or another even our program, and to not openly admit that then I would be living a lie, however all sides of an encounter need to be addressed, it is in these areas we have progressed greatly and can offer more then what has been addressed in the past.

Then we have

As I mentioned before the new civilian martial arts program we are launching in Mar 07 will change the way professionals have viewed and practiced the arts for real self defense and protection in the streets, their homes and in the courtroom.

The web can be a troublesome communication media with all kinds of misunderstandings, so it is essential that we are clear and clear again, and define and define again what we mean or try to sell.

For example we have words such as ‘civilian martial arts program’ _ Civilian as opposed to what? Military? Police?

Van, the program we are talking about is designed specifically for the average JOE citizen as you refer to...the one who does not stay in top physical shape, the every day woman and man who travels back and forth in the work place, to the kids at school...these programs have been modeled from the ones we teach the military and law enforcement professionals...I use the term professionals to the people who are certified to train others in protecting and saving their lives....if some get offended by feeling that they have been left out then this would be a personal issued they should address...however we go through many different certification processes from tactical soundness - being evaluated by other professionals in our field, to a medical soundness - meaning doctors have reviewed the program for possible injuries, and being anatomically correct, to a legal soundness - from lawyers who have reviewed our programs to ensure what we teach in legal and fits within a force continuum and meets other federal guidelines for legalities...This is how I use and refer to the term professionals.

How many times have we seen the argument that as karate practitioners ‘we are not police/military’ etc. etc. _ meaning we don’t need to do any of this stuff_ what we practice happens to have self defense in it and it will be successful against the average street attack. This argument in response to my discussions of reality concepts_ NO?

Van too many times I would believe, however the fact of the matter is YOU do need to know this...ignorance is no excuse for what you need to know….the fact that a person has not kept up with the legalities of what we do does not change the fact that we are obligated to be educated on this....again as professionals...this is what separates us from the other people out there who are just doing it......I can see the argument from people who have never had to defend in court what they do...but when they do have to defend their actions in court...that is not the time to get educated on it....Personal Survival and Self Defense is a complete package...Right now there are many people out there only selling the cool bag and not the items to put in the bag...[/i]

will change the way professionals have viewed and practiced the arts for real self defense and protection in the streets, their homes and in the courtroom.

What defines ‘professionals’ in this context? Are we including a professional karate teacher running a dojo, as an example? And if so, isn’t this ‘professional’ catering to the average ‘Joe’ instead of specialized groups?

Van See above……

Do you see where the TMA practitioners may cloud?

Van again the clouds just mean they have stopped learning….

And more so

We have been training professional since 1984 in protecting their lives in both the streets, courtrooms and at home, and I am challenging the readers and fellow martial artists to make it a point to attend our training certification in Mount. Dora, FL March 26-28, 2007...

So does this mean that the ‘fellow martial artist’ [us] will receive the same training that professionals have received since 1984, in order for the average karate practitioner to learn things that the Traditional practice does not provide?

Van See above………

Okay_ But will this training also include physical techniques and mindset issues that TMA does not provide?

Van yes and much more……

In self defense training when your own life or the lives of your loved ones are on the line, the ONLY guarantee one can give is their word and the successful achievement of that goal.

I agree. But I bet many TMA teachers reading this will not like it, because they believe that it is all in their system and ‘mushin’ will take care of any problem, as we have been reminded before _ time and again.

Van I have learned that there are some people who get it, some who never get it and some never will.

I am intentionally being verbose and ‘needling’ so as to stimulate some conversation or this will remain another dead thread.

[i][b]Van..I hear you loud and clear buddy and your words are greatly appreciate with your efforts.....As I said before...I am not here to pump anyone’s egos, nor am I heer to tell them anyone is wrong, and if I offend anyone then they really need to decide whether to enter this forum and participate or join in, or be like the many others who just pop in and read and go…....but before anyone’s says anything say it with FACT not their own personal opinion...not from what they think is a good idea, and the fact that someone has does something for 20 plus years never makes it right...especially if it never evolves. Just means they have been doing something for 20 years...... we get challenged everyday and survive our encounters..I just want to share what we do to help save others

Hopefully others out there want to as well and will help me…..

And Van before I forget I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas….
Forgive me for any typos.....THANKS

Dave[/i][/b]

[wes tasker]

I think one issue too that needs to be expounded on is what does one mean when they say TMA (traditional martial art)? Are you talking about rigidly interpreted Karate or any martial art that's been passed down?

The reason I say this is that in other venues the Filipino martial art that I practice (Pekiti Tirsia) is, too me, a "raditional martial art". Although, like any art, it doesn't have all the answers - it's definitely weatherd quite a few storms....

Perhaps we need some clarity when TMA is used as to exactly what is meant. Especially considering the dictionary definition of "tradition" whereas once you learn something from Mr. Young and teach it - it becomes a "traditional" martial art

-wes tasker

[Dave Young]

Hummm, definitions mean so many things to so many different people. So I can only tell you how it means to me and what we are doing...you will have to ask Van and George about theirs...

The term TMA is not used in a bad or unprofessional way....When we say traditional martial arts I guess we are talking about the business.....the commercialization of how people are teaching and what they teach. To say that one TMA style is better than another would be based only on a personal opinion and if two people fought in a ring the best style would not win but the best warrior....

At this time there isn't a committee that authorizes what people teach (except from that style) in the martial arts world, not a nation wide committee to be the voice or reason, or justification for anything they teach....

Each empty hand style or system has been born from others...we see everyone trying to get the credit for how someone else took the time, energy and puts forth the effort to make what they were doing better...this is how I viewed what Bruce Lee tried to do and say within the Marital Arts Community..hey do not get pissed off at them...praise them and take it as a compliment...if you are in this for a ego stroke then stand in front a mirror..but when you stand in front a group of people who are giving you their personal time, their hard earn money and placing their life in your hands, you need to ...hell you owe it to them to be the best professional you can be and that is where the additional training for the professional is obligation to his students. People who are just taking martial arts as a sport, or for recreation purposes, or just because they do not want to workout in the gym then it doesn't really matter where they go and whom provides that instruction...so this means nothing to them...

However for the person who is being trained for the purpose of saving their life, or the life of others, that is who we are talking to, and I hope they hear us. The survival is 3 fold, in the street, in the courtroom and in the home of your mind when everything is done....as I mentioned before in my other posts..a complete package, not just the a cool bag...

Now in every category there are and will always be the exception to the rule...

...how one interprets this fighting style is often how one teaches it, and the teaching ability of one instructor in most cases are greatly different then others...which in turns affect the fighting style itself!

A true master of ANY style has a lot to offer...culture, religious beliefs, family traditions passed down through the generations all play a vital role of any art...even the art of survival which has taken on many different faces within all of our circles.

With each style offering their own important contributions throughout the years. I think the bast way to define the term TMA would be the way we are doing business. We have more data on how physical encounter happen, each state, nationally has groups on various committees on acts of violence. 50 years ago when martial arts first started to become popular it was taught from a self defense stand point, learning the ways of skills passed down from generations. Then as time pasted techniques became more watered down, taught differently, and in time some lost their original meaning and in some cases their effect.

To say that a punch is a punch, is a punch would be a lie. Physical encounters in today's society have no rules in which to prepare a person for survival, 50 years ago you could do a 'Whatever technique,' in today's society the types of students we get are vastly different from 50, 30 even 10 years ago.

After reading what I wrote, I am not sure if it answered your question, but it did say what I was thinking and how I felt on the subject. It is hard to write on a forum where their are so many people with their own opinion, thoughts and views.

Dave
Stay Safe, Stay Strong, and most importantly STAY A LIVE!

[Van Canna]

Thank you Dave for the clarifications and definitions opinions.

Definitions can influence lots of pathways, in all aspects of life, the reason why they are so important to address and the reason why I brought it up.

In my legal work, it was all about ‘definitions’ and
Accepted ‘standards’ that made or broke a case for us.

Okay_ But will this training also include physical techniques and mindset issues that TMA does not provide?

Van yes and much more……

I used the same argument in the ten years of running a forum. Not to disparage TMA but to point out that modern studies of combat and street fights have shown useful attributes needing absorption that I never learned in any dojos or in the days of the tough tournaments of the sixties. And my legal work in these areas, confirmed all of this.

Oh God_ it was blasphemy. “You mean to tell me the ‘right TMA_ the right teacher” does not provide you with physical techniques and mindset that an ‘expert’ like Dave would teach you?”


As you can see, Dave, not many are willing to post on this thread. Many, if not most of the senior/seniors _ did feel put down by what I would write in this context and lashed out as animals in dying throes_

All they were able to say was something like ‘you must go deeper’ _ what a bunch of!!@## bores.

They then followed with emails to George feeling dissed, and stating that the ‘modern experts’ were nothing but charlatans with an agenda, and not experts at all. Then the personal ‘BS attacks’ came_Thank God I have a thick skin.

As to ‘certification’ their argument was ‘well we give you a Dan rank diploma from a well respected association, what else do you need in a court room or on the streets?

Maybe we should talk about ‘a standard’ that your certification would comply with and why, and why such certification would be seen favorably by a trier of fact, leaving aside street survival for the moment.

Again, look at how many of our seniors chose to stay out of this discussion. And I wouldn’t be surprised if George starts getting ‘dissed’ emails.

[Van Canna]

1. Van all training is lacking in one way or another even our program, and to not openly admit that then I would be living a lie, however all sides of an encounter need to be addressed, it is in these areas we have progressed greatly and can offer more then what has been addressed in the past.


2. Physical encounters in today's society have no rules in which to prepare a person for survival, 50 years ago you could do a 'Whatever technique,' in today's society the types of students we get are vastly different from 50, 30 even 10 years ago.

3. With each style offering their own important contributions throughout the years. I think the bast way to define the term TMA would be the way we are doing business. We have more data on how physical encounter happen, each state, nationally has groups on various committees on acts of violence.


4. Van too many times I would believe, however the fact of the matter is YOU do need to know this...ignorance is no excuse for what you need to know….

the fact that a person has not kept up with the legalities of what we do does not change the fact that we are obligated to be educated on this....again as professionals...this is what separates us from the other people out there who are just doing it......

I can see the argument from people who have never had to defend in court what they do...but when they do have to defend their actions in court...that is not the time to get educated on it....

Personal Survival and Self Defense is a complete package...Right now there are many people out there only selling the cool bag and not the items to put in the bag...

[Dave Young]

Again Van..it is always a pleasure talking with you....and like you I am not hear to try to make others feel good about themselves..if 100 people do not like the fact, it doesn't change the fact.

The fact that one has received a certification from a governing body stating that this person who has completed a series of tasks or performance skills, some never even say that now the person is authorized to teach a certain system, and only usually helps if they stay within that specific system if that...when things go wrong, or injuries are sustained, or possibly death it takes much more then that and the people I speak to who disagree or become offended only do so because they let themselves fall behind the curve ball so to speak...things changing every few years, technology, legal guidelines, society acceptance all play a vital role, but in the long run of things the training one receives to start their own training must be supported by the continuous training they receive after their initial certification.

In most service provider careers when one receives a certification to start their career that is just the beginning..re-certification, testing, practical examinations happen yearly or every few years to just maintain their certification......you have heard the ole saying....
"What do you call a person who graduates last in his medical class.......DOCTOR....."

Just think how many other people you know fit into this category?

And from what I have seen in most cases in the world of self defense continuous learning has stopped....you do not get retested after you receive your black belt certification..just think that if this was the case how many people would lose or be stripped of their certification
I am amused how many put so much emphases on the color of the belt they are wearing rather then the knowledge they have to provide.

There are far to many self proclaimed experts, gurus or text book heroes and power point commandos out there, etc.....

Legal beagles use words like...showing due care.....continuous education.... vicarious liability just having a black belt certification on the wall as you say does not embrace all of what a law suit encompasses or criminal charges that be filed...

Hope that helped.

Dave

[Dave Young]

Van,

In the personal self defense field, I am not aware of any such standards...many self proclaimed experts but this is one of the biggest problems...many different organizations but no one governing body to say you are OK to do that or your not.

However in my field or Use of Force, my self and quite a few others are nationally and internationally recognized and considered experts in this field, and have testified on various levels of the legal process on civil and criminal matters. I work with 10 use force experts in my field who review our programs yearly. Some are retired from police or corrections, current officers and supervisors, doctors and scientists.

We write for national publications, serve as advisory board members for many professional organizations, and do this for a living. Some of us average over 50-70 schools per year, ad some even more.

Standards set in my field are done through a variety of procedures. An excepted practice or something that has been done for years is becoming the minority with out the proper justification.

In the civilian side of self defense some trainers get one military person in their class then the thing you hear is how they trained a military branch...in reality it takes much more then that.

As I mentioned in my other threads, tactical, medical and legal soundness evaluations are needed in order to receive state or federal grants. This is done to protect agencies in my field from taking or receiving training from unqualified people. Even though there are many trainers in my field, very, very, very few have completed this process.

Each state has what is referred to as a (POST) standing for Police Officer Standards and Training, before an agency can officially adopt a training program or bring outside training into their department they must be approved through this process.

Extreme background checks are done on us before local, state or federal department or agencies can use us, references are called, spoken to and asked a serious of questions about the content of training, injuries sustained during the training, actually effectiveness of techniques etc...

Hope that answered your question Van.

Thanks

Dave

[Van Canna]

It certainly does, Dave_ Thanks.

And it should also convince the non believers that _ say they find themselves under attack by the prosecution, the mention of your training and the certification, can be used to show that they acted in accordance with a 'policed' training standard, aimed at the civilian sector.

And would you be able to either testify personally or provide experts who would testify as to a _trained by you _ person's defensive response action in accordance with the reasonable care standards you teach?

Lethal Force Institute [Mas Ayoob] does provide this expert testimony for free to graduates of LFI-1 _

[Dave Young]

It certainly does, Dave_ Thanks.

And it should also convince the non believers that _ say they find themselves under attack by the prosecution, the mention of your training and the certification, can be used to show that they acted in accordance with a 'policed' training standard, aimed at the civilian sector.

And would you be able to either testify personally or provide experts who would testify as to a _trained by you _ person's defensive response action in accordance with the reasonable care standards you teach?

Lethal Force Institute [Mas Ayoob] does provide this expert testimony for free to graduates of LFI-1 _

Yes Van of course we will support, defend and testify in court for them.... this was one of the things I mentioned about the complete package. The liability protection for the student, before, during and after their training is all part of it in addition to the training.

Thanks again!

Dave

[MikeK]

I was introduced to the issue of liability when I was practicing CDT. Every technique was done strictly with the idea that you didn't cause permanent injury to the other person. While I think having only that mindset can be very dangerous, it did give me more options for low threat situations and also showed me that things aren't always over after the fight. That alone was worth the training.