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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Interesting question that Van once again asked about in one of Dave's threads.

One dictionary says "traditional" is:

quote: Conforming to established practice or standards:



Which I believe is a pretty fair definition for what a traditional martial art is.

MMA don't really qualify, because of its nature of ongoing change in technique and strategy.

A brand new martial art doesn't qualify either, since few of the made-up new styles of martial arts last long enough to be considered "traditional".

A system that has been around for awhile (Uechi) and has retained its core values, techniques, kata and mindset would, in my estimation qualify as a "traditional" system.

Granted, the proponents "work" the techniques to suit the individual and components are modified, added and in some cases deleted. But the core system has been preserved and continues to be studied. Importantly, individuals are able to interpret these components in their own way while retaining the identifying qualities of the core system.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 15:43
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Tradition Martial Artist

I will gladly throw myself out there in this thread......

Definitions mean MANY things to many different people. And with definitions come beliefs, and egos.

The word TRADITIONAL in itself usually pertains to something done the original way, past down through generations, therefore become a tradition. This is the way it has always been done mentality. This also preserves secrets specific to each style. This is good but also stops the learning factor in the process.

Mixed Martial Arts usually means just that, a mixture of various styles, not only past down though the generations but constantly evolving...if it dos not change it quickly becomes outdated. This is the way it was done last year becomes a different way this year mentality. This also exposes secrets specific to each style therefore the need to change, enhance and do it differently because it is a continuous cycle of learning.

The best example I can give is 50 years ago when the knee strike was taught it was done this way with movement, contact and breathing.....But now 50 years later, we definitely have a more effective way to execute a knee strike, not only from movement tactics, the contact methods, and breathing we have other dynamics, to enhance the knee strike through repetition, past reports, liability issues, technology, number of uses etc.. that was not available 50 years ago.

I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.

To try to live within these terms and definitions is possible but then when you do, you assume the label put on it as well.

Any further thoughts?

Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 16:31
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gmattson



Joined: 16 Sep 1998
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida I believe we

are saying the same thing Dave.

You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.

But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".
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Post 18 Dec 2006 17:13
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MikeK



Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused

quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.


On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.

quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.



Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...

“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”

But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 18:07
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Thanks MikeK

quote: Originally posted by MikeK If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused

quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.


On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.

quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.



Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...

“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”

But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate you sharing that with me. He does sound like the out of the box type of teacher I would have enjoyed....

Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."

You might be on a sports field and hiting a ball, but you are definitely out of the ball park.....lol

Are you going to be at the MAAI confernce in Vegas this year?

Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:37
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Re: I believe we

quote: Originally posted by gmattson are saying the same thing Dave.

You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.

But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".


-------------------------------------------------------------

Yes George I think we are.....but you know me I like to have pictures with my words....lol

Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:42
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MikeK



Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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Dave, I wish I could make it to the MAAI conference. Heck I'd love to get down to FL for the training, but family keeps me here in VA. My wife already thinks I'm nuts for driving 60 miles each Sunday to spend the day training and having my arse handed to me. Laughing

quote: Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."



That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.

A problem I have with traditional martial arts is how often extra baggage creeps in and becomes part of the tradition. By their nature they are trying to preserve things and rarely go through a good house cleaning to get rid of excess that can bog everyone down and gets in the way of the important things. Just my opinion.

The other thing about tradition that I don't get is whose traditions are we carrying on and why?
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Post 18 Dec 2006 21:55
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World MikeK

quote: That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.



------------------------------------------------

Very good one..thanks....
Hey I hear you on the family issued...I was blessed with the one I have, I live in Fayetteville, NC now and drive the east coast alot. We should stay in touch and if time permits maybe we can get together for a training session. I have agents from the DC and MD area who travel here for training when I am free.

And you do know she may like FL as it is close to Orlando, and she could even train with you if she is interested....just let me know, I will make arrangements for her to go through the course with you at her own pace free of charge.

Either way I appreciate your comments and questions. Merry Christmas.....

Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 22:25
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MikeK



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Thanks for the offer Dave but if she hits Orlando she'll be hitting the spa at the Grand Floridian. Laughing She's in good shape and has handled herself well on two occasions in NYC. She maybe the nastier fighter between the two of us. Me, I'm a big old wuss and one of the worst martial arts posers ever.

Fayetteville isn't all that far from Richmond. Ever do seminars in the area?

You have a Merry Christmas too Dave.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 22:40
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Hey I hear you there.....

A spa does sound better then some hard training though maybe she is onto something....Very Happy

No Richmond is not far at all. The only training I do in this area is either private contract for the military, or for special requests, as I mentioned earlier. But a training day with you I am always open for when we can both schedule the time.

Let me know...God Bless!

Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 23:28
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MikeK



Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.

quote: the crux is of course the core , to me if you do the big three and kotikitae/conditioning your doing Uechi , that is the tradtion , all else is well everything else .



Marcus, So is the traditional core of Uechi just what's in the 3 kata and conditioning? Couldn't I use 2, 3, 4 or 5 of the other kata and still get the core material? This is a problem with "tradition", it can keep new material out and lock excess material in.
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Post 19 Dec 2006 13:00
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Anytime MikeK

quote: Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.



Just let me now!

Dave
Post 19 Dec 2006 13:07
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wes tasker



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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Location: Somerville, MA

Marcus-

quote: well the conformists traditions Mike , you see if you dont conform then by definition they wont see you as traditional so you have to scrape and bow and be scared of the labels .



Who is "they"? I've been a student of traditional martial arts for about 26 years now and have never run into what you're talking about. I know that everyone's experience is different - but why are you painting with such a wide brush?
There is more to traditional martial arts than just what you've experienced and or seen/heard.

-wes tasker
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Post 19 Dec 2006 14:47
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MikeK



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Wes,
I'm going to guess the "they" are people who conform to traditions just to fit in and accept the traditions because that's just the way things have always been done, and in my experience it is very common among many arts that have a revered founder. Arts from JKD to Shotokan to WC all can have a problem with practitioners becoming orthodox traditional in their practices.

Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts, and what makes certain arts traditional?
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Post 19 Dec 2006 16:30
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wes tasker



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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quote: Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts,



Basically, if they have what you are looking for. If you wanted to study a classical form of Japanese swordsmanship and were lucky enough to gain entrance to the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu - then great. They are commited to preserving 15th century weapons tactics. Just because an art is done for preservation, doesn't make it bad. What about the guy who joins an Aikido school because he likes the philosophy, reishiki, and movement and could care less if it will help him when Billy-bad-ass high on PCP mugs him. As long as one is honest about what one does than great. So if you're happy in the art that you do, and it serves its purpose, and there's no mis-direction as far as what the art is for and why one is practicing it - then there are your benefits.

quote: and what makes certain arts traditional?



Merriam-Webster:

Tradition - an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action.

Notice the definition has nothing to do with how old the pattern is, or if it's been modified or not. Tradition is one of those words in the martial arts (like Qi, Internal, and Aiki) where there is a "dictionary" definition, and then there is everyone and their uncle's personal definition. I tend to go with the dictionary one - so alot of what people think is not traditional, I do.

-wes
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:48 pm 
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quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well the conformists traditions Mike , you see if you dont conform then by definition they wont see you as traditional so you have to scrape and bow and be scared of the labels .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Who is "they"? I've been a student of traditional martial arts for about 26 years now and have never run into what you're talking about. I know that everyone's experience is different - but why are you painting with such a wide brush?
There is more to traditional martial arts than just what you've experienced and or seen/heard.

-wes tasker



of course I can only speak for my own experience , I never consider my opinion absolute .

simply put I think if you dont conform to what others consider traditional ... chances are they wont think your traditional

pretty common in the martial arts Ive seen and experienced , is very cool if your experience has been different , gives one hope Cool

I must admit ive met some great openminded folks , but there usually targeted as heretics too Laughing Laughing
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Post 20 Dec 2006 02:54
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gmattson



Joined: 16 Sep 1998
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida Van..

quote: a. The student has the option to either participate exclusively with the traditional training and certifications without the reality stripes for performance.



I'll try to answer, since Dave is "on the road".

I believe Dave was simply presenting an "overview" to his program and how it interfaces with a dojo's regular program. The statement was not referring to the 3 day program being held in Florida in March.

Regarding your point:

quote: I resent any traditional teacher who will state that i.e., you do your kata, kumite, conditioning, bunkai_ and when street violence comes, you will be ready_
Sure, but ready against what?



I don't see anyone promoting this on these forums Van. Dave's forum is attempting to offer a reasonable program for those who need/want to supplement their regular training. Dave has attempted to come up with a way to add this "realist" component to our "traditional" training without changing what you currently do.

His description attempted to clarify this option.
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Post 20 Dec 2006 08:02
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Norm Abrahamson



Joined: 22 May 2001
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Location: Mansfield, MA USA

Thought I'd chime in:

Don't confuse "traditional" with "stagnant." Just because an art is traditional, the way it is trained and viewed should evolve. If I practice my kata only the way I learned them, and never look to create anything new in bunkai or kumite, and practice the same moves over and over again without really thinking about them, then I have stagnated.

If I try new approaches when practicing my kata, change up bunkai and kumite attacks, make up my own bunkai and kumite, see what works and what doesn't work, then I am still practicing a traditional art. Traditional arts leave the practioner with tremendous room for growth. As with anything else, it is proportional to the thought and work one is willing to put in. Traditional arts have plenty of room for modern training techniques and philosophies.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson
Post 20 Dec 2006 10:38
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Van Canna



Joined: 11 Mar 1999
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Thanks for the clarification George. In other words Dave will show the student how to use his traditional training to merge with the real world in ways that as ‘it now stands’ TMA does not address the survival realities of the street_

So people reading this will realize that as ‘tools go’ traditional karate is excellent [something I have always espoused] but limited in tactical applications for street survival unless more specialized training is undertaken_ Is this correct?

quote: I don't see anyone promoting this on these forums Van.



Maybe not now, but certainly SO in the past as you well know, in so many ways by so many seniors both on the forums and personally.

Like ‘well you need to go deeper and will see the light’ _
that gave rise to much furor in so many dissenting ways.

You remember the ‘tag lines’ problem of the past when you had to field complaints behind the Uechi curtain.

Comments have been made to me about similar ‘tag lines’ by Dave in his presentation of his program_

quote: I am only talking to the martial artist who train others to stay alive....NOT the sport minded martial artists, NOT the recreational martial artists, NOT the ones who do it as a striking a pose so to speak or add another certificate to their wall, but the ones who truly do this for the their own personal survival of themselves and the students they teach...

And your right not all students who go to their teacher at the dojo do that out of their dying loyalty as in the old days, some do it because hey they are close and fits their needs, but the real survival business end of it, and nothing more is who I am talking with and too .



Human nature being what it is there are many reading this thinking _ “Is he talking about me?”

Dave

quote: but the real survival business end of it, and nothing more is who I am talking with and too.



Of course he is not dissing anyone; he is delineating critical training differences and goals. But the emotional highjack is beginning to rear its ugly head.

Let us be honest and admit that the majority of TMA practitioners believe they have all they need that flows from their TMA practice. There goes the Mushin mentality. Maybe so for some _ certainly not for all.

The truth is not the ‘tools’ but the way they are taught to be implemented, physically, mentally, and emotionally_ taking into account the infinite consequences of violence dynamics and its aftermath _ that I don’t recall ever being talked about in any Uechi dojo in the past, here or overseas.
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Post 20 Dec 2006 11:07
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Van Canna



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An example of 'what and how' is taught is 'what and how' Wes Tasker teaches a Uechi person to keep his fingers and underams intact against the 'sudden blade' in a street fight.
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Post 20 Dec 2006 11:15
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mhosea



Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Natick, MA

quote: Originally posted by Van Canna
We have read on these pages that the people 'who do not want to' have charged the people 'who want to' as being obsessed with violence or street attacks that will never happen, not understanding the concept of 'street and financial insurance' and the consequences of 'action' or 'failure to act' _



I have to admit that you came across to me that way in the beginning, Van, but I gradually came to realize that it was more of a concern that bullshido will get people killed.

Insurance is an excellent analogy. Whether or not to invest in insurance is a complicated decision based on many factors, including psychology, experience, and perceived risk (your own assessment of the actual risk, which is generally unknown), as well as your willingness to accept the consequences of not insuring. Here the investment is not so much money, rather effort.

Incidentally, we lost one of our trainers at the Natick Gold's Gym (where Fedele teaches) to street violence a few days ago. He was stabbed in a bar incident in Boston by another man from Natick and died from complications a couple of weeks (edit: was "days") later. He did not train with us and AFAIK was not a martial artist.
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Last edited by mhosea on 20 Dec 2006 17:39; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Dec 2006 12:19
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Van Canna



Joined: 11 Mar 1999
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quote: I have to admit that you came across to me that way in the beginning, Van, but I gradually came to realize that it was more of a concern that bullshido will get people killed



Thanks, and that’s okay_ the reasons why my forum was born as a defense reality page hosting so many of the real world experts as opposed to ‘dojo conjecture’ at least that’s the way I see it, and I have the right to write and feel anything I want as anyone else does.

? Insurance is an excellent analogy. <

Yes it is all about common sense _ putting egos aside and admitting we all have lots to learn no matter where we trained [Okinawa or Mars] what ‘rank’ we hold and how many bats we can break with our shins. And with the learning process being multifaceted and continuous as the world turns. Think of how many people have not bought the umbrella policy I have spoken of for years on end.

In the end, people will do what they are going to do, no matter what. It is ‘natural selection’ at work.

? He was stabbed in a bar incident in Boston by another man from Natick and died from complications a couple of days later. <

Bet he never thought some bar fracas would result in a blade attack. With training, he could have, possibly, learned to not find himself in that situation to start with.

If and when an attack comes, even for the trained_ it will be entirely different than the one we are trained to imagine in the dojo.

What a shame to die to the ubiquitous blade. Sad
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Post 20 Dec 2006 13:29
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Dave Young



Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World I am on the road and answering this from my cell...

Van,

When the student goes through the program we are conducting and then goes back to their dojo they have the option to;

Option 1- Ignore what we taught and continue teaching their current curriculum – without any hard feelings…but after they go through the 5 training series – they will be certified through an authorizing body with the support from Northcentral Technical College and RedMan Training and Gear who is the leader in the industry for protective equipment and use of force training, and will be certified to use the RedMan Training Gear…or……………...Once the student has successfully completed their 1st belt testing, since the instructor completed the Realism Training Series (RTS!-1) we have conducted they can start using the RedMan Gear and Equipment to conduct their own training in drills, and simulations and again be protected with the support of Northcentral Technical College and RedMan Training Division…….last option is………..once the student has successfully completed their 1st belt testing, since the instructor completed the Realism Training (RTS-1) we have conducted they can start teaching the Realism Training in the phase the student is currently at (please see example at the reference guidelines I posted earlier). As well as using the RedMan Gear and Equipment to conduct the training and drills, and simulations we certified them in teaching, and again be protected with the support of Northcentral Technical College and RedMan Training Division….then after the student has successfully complete the first training stage they can be awarded the 1st RedMan Training Realism Stripe to acknowledge their achievement and Realism Skill Level as we have out lined.


I have extended my typing abilities on my cell and will return after the first of the year to expand on any other questions you may on this. THANKS

Dave
PS..hope that helped Van…Merry Christmas
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