Nishiuchi kobudo

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:13 pm

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:14 pm

Thanks Victor excellent viewing.I've been watching the sword and shield, maybe that is were the jump back occurs in Uechi kata, i.e. from kobudo.
also check out this ( may be of interest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_oR5Ifm_o

I heard that the famous choki motubu had a family style which he never learned, maybe this was it

..it was supposed to be a samurai art and look a bit like aikido, this seems to fit the bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:24 pm

First of all... Victor, you are forever my friend.

Victor wrote:
This is one of the most detailed explanations of an Okinawan kobudo system I have ever seen, literally several hours of material. The only close record is that of the Innoue group in Japan in the Taira Shinken tradition, but even their extensive material doesn’t cover as much individual kobudo depth.

I have what Innoue material I could get when it first started coming out. Alas it appears they stopped producing.

For instance, I keep looking for sources of the Tsukenshitahaku no Sai that I teach. It appears that all such sources are out of print. I'm one step away from producing a video of my own just so that reference material like this never gets lost.

I'll have to review this stuff more closely. There's a lot of depth beyond just doing the kata.

jorvik wrote:
I've been watching the sword and shield, maybe that is were the jump back occurs in Uechi kata, i.e. from kobudo.

I hear you. I found it, and have been riveted by the application. And it couldn't come at a better time.

I've been trying to teach Seisan bunkai to three new brown belts, all of whom are advanced in age. I can't get any of them to do the official Seisan Jump bunkai the way they teach it. I've always thought it was a stupid move. Trying to teach it to people whom I know don't have a snowball's chance of hell in pulling it off "as is" has gotten me experimenting. None of my kobudo kata would do that move against the sword the way they teach in Uechi. The application I would draw from either Hamahiga no tonfa or Tsukenshitahaku no sai would be much simpler - and much more effective.

And wouldn't you know... Interesting to watch a "similar" move done repeatedly here. They don't get off on the athletic two-legged jumps; They just happen as a matter of course here and there. They tend just to get the leg out of the way so they can continue the fight. And they don't really try to charge forward off a single leg in the middle of a fight. The two-legged stance is returned to as expeditiously as possible.

Timbei Kata and Bunkai

Fun stuff...

Film of my own coming up. I promise.

- Bill

chef · Post by **chef** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:22 pm

Most excellent explanations and breakdown. Thanks, Victor. Bill took the words right out of my mouth.

I hope to ear mark this and learn as much as possible.

Great stuff....and good researching!

Regards,
Vicki

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:41 am

Hi Bill and all, thanks for your support of my minor research.

Found a bit of a gold mine this time. Glad you’re seeing some value as in the Tinbe/Seisan jump connection.

I have a standard search I conduct on weekends to see what I can find, and I really want people everywhere to realize the internet has given us a level playing field on this material. We really can’t learn a great deal from video, as everything shown really takes a long time to get together and needs continual instructor feedback to get right, but we can learn to understand and see parallels.

Bill, please contact me at isshim2@comcast.net and let me know what you’re looking for about the Innoue Tsuken Shitahaku No Sai kata, what you have and what you’d like to see. Perhaps I can help you get up with the right person.

It might be interesting to note what Okinawan kobudo I’m aware exists. Formally I practice Isshinryu’s kobudo studies, and various others from friends training over the years (bando staff and stick, kama, tanto, tai chi sword) and work for at least several decades now. But I have friends in many of the different Okinawan traditions and they are interesting and a different depth than what my Isshinryu offers, too.

I’m long past looking for more material, but I have found great value in the long term practice of kobudo as it really enhances kata application study. It took me a long time but I gradually came to see how decades of intense Chinese weapons studies enhanced my instructors Eagle Claw grappling, or how tai chi sword was integral in learning how to develop balance point alignment in tai chi practice, and the look on your partners face when you grab them and use their arm as if striking with a sai is very interesting to observe. Personally it is this where I see the value of kobudo lies for karate-ka.

The range of Okinawan kobudo is more interesting than one might think.

Let’s see we have Taira Shinken’s vast studies (with Yabiku Moden and many others). They continue in Japan in the Innoue group, and in Okinawa in the Akamine group.

Taira published the first of a planned 5 books on Kobudo (Translated into English by Patrick McCarthy)

Material from Taira has been found through Murakami Katsui’s SaiJutsu (trans. Joe Swift - published Tuttle) and a work on Bo (not kata but terribly interesting technique applications) that will eventually be published in English too (trans. J. Swift)

Innoue has produced very high level video covering his first of 3 books (Rhukyu Kobudo), and in English in the publications on kobudo of Ryusho Sakagami if I understand correctly.

The Akamine group has presented video versions of Taira performing various kata, and I understand is planning on continuing Taira’s original series of books. Someone has also marketed a video of Akamine performing various kobudo kata, but this was produced outside of the family, filmed at some clinic.

Then in no particular order:

Matayoshi Shinpo’s kobudo has been preserved on video, Tsunami, as well as the Nishiuchi video I found. Nisuichi’s video covers the entire range of Matayoshi material, but some of the kata are not from Matayoshi and might be created for beginners. That makes sense to me as this series really is trying to show these various arts from the ground up, not the complete arts involved. You can only learn so much from a video, but the hours they share have a lot to contemplate.

Motobu family arts. The late Uehara Seikichi left a rather interesting series of Japanese videos on his arts. Joe Swift has translated and published Matsuo kaneori Sakon’s “The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu”, but its for sale (in English) only through a German publisher. The book certainly touches on the range of their kobudo, but interestingly is often focused on karate’s development in current day Japan/Okinawa.

Hohen Soken’s Matsumura Orthodox ShorinRyu, contains Kobudo studies.

There is the Yammani kobudo tradition, which is exclusively bo. As I understand it, the tradition is very closely held in Okinawa with few practitioners. A variation of the Yammani theme is being passed along across the world today, but it is not the original tradition. New Bo kata, and inclusion of Sai, among the changes.

Note: I don’t mean to imply new kata are bad, just not the original arts.

Mabuni Kenwa’s Shito Ryu has a kobudo tradition. I believe the writings of Demura Fumio are the best available English choices.

I’m sure there are traditions I haven’t mentioned but this is what I can offer at this time.

For example Isshinryu’s kobudo came from his study with Kyan, Taira and Shimabuku Tatsuo’s own efforts.

For good or bad I believe I have much of what has been published in English in my records. Of course I don’t practice those arts, just picked them up for my research.

Also as an aside, the rivalry between the different Okinawan kobudo factions appears as strong as that between the various karate factions.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:55 am

This is almost a revelation to me

.I've always thought that Okinwans went to learn their arts in China and then brought them back and taught them in Oki. this seems to indicate otherwise, that the Okinawans went to China with a clear idea of what they wanted to study and what they wanted to bring back

It would seem that "Yer hard Men" had an idea of how and with what to fight, and that if you got in a scrap chances are you'd get bludgeoned or dismembered...so that when they came to update their Chinese knowledge they had to take into account their own customs
It's like me going to the states to learn how to fight

.........and then coming back to England where a feather duster is considered an offensive weapon, all that good guncraft and knife craft would be useless

also when we say a sword we tend to think of a Japanese Katana and not an Okinawan Chopper.seems to explain a lot of the confusion to me.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:39 pm

jorvik wrote:
also when we say a sword we tend to think of a Japanese Katana and not an Okinawan Chopper.seems to explain a lot of the confusion to me.

Think about this for a minute. Some swordsmen fight with a single sword along with a single shield. Others fight with just the sword.

Hmm...

I suppose someone could make some sort of declaration about "offense wins, so screw this blocking..." But then... When you're in a battle schit flies, you know? There are swords and sticks to fight. But then there may also be arrows and spears. That presents a different fighting paradigm.

Food for thought.

A sword used one-handed needs to be managed very differently from a katana where both hands get to manipulate the blade.

- Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:58 pm

Something about the length of that sword's hilt makes me think he's not using it quite right, or he's at least leaving things out. It really looks like a small spear with a big blade.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:49 pm

Victor Smith wrote: Matayoshi Shinpo’s kobudo has been preserved on video, Tsunami,

I have heard that Matayoshi liked to adlib when his performance was being taped, and that as a result the Tsunami videos are not accurate records of his kata. Comparing Matayoshi's performances from various sources with those of his students, I suspect this is true.

From another thread http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=16050 :

Matayoshi's demonstrations on the Tsunami videos were largely made up on the spot. Some of the kata are nearly unrecognizable.

and later in the same thread:

I think my words were poorly-chosen. I should not have said "unrecognizable".

I just went back to watch Matayoshi Sensei perform Choun, Shushi, and Sakugawa No Kun to refresh my memory. According to the method I've been taught, he's doing things 90% the standard way, and modifying about 10% of the kata. Shushi is changed more than the others, but Choun is missing a couple of techniques, and Sakugawa has added a few that normally aren't there.

According to my teachers, Matayoshi Sensei almost always modified kata if he thought he was being taped. In addition, he had a good memory, so he sometimes called people out who learned from video, and even knew from what demonstration (video) they "learned" the kata from. This is especially evident in the rampant "crane" forms that many people claim to have gottent from the Matayoshi line.

diegoz_ar · Post by **diegoz_ar** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:47 pm

I just went back to watch Matayoshi Sensei perform Choun, Shushi, and Sakugawa No Kun to refresh my memory. According to the method I've been taught, he's doing things 90% the standard way, and modifying about 10% of the kata. Shushi is changed more than the others, but Choun is missing a couple of techniques, and Sakugawa has added a few that normally aren't there.

I have the Tsunami video tapes, from Matayoshi. And the version he showed in this Tsunami tapes of "Choun no koun" is not like the version my kobudo teacher always perform and teach. The Matayoshi-Tsunami version seems like some moves were erased.

Regards to the Eku kata, I am not sure if this same situation happen.

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:02 am

Hi Glen,

When I was referencing that Matayoshi's kobudo was preserved on the various video records, such as Tsunami's, I wasn't commenting those preservations were exact.

Yes, I too have been told Matayoshi almost always modified his kata when filmed or in public performance.

But while the kata record may be incorrect, Matayoshi performing them was pure Matayoshi. He can't leave that part out. It's what you're looking for.

There are traditions where the kata continually evolved. Isshinryu's founder taught his system many different ways, sometimes varying directly to the students needs.

In those cases I always felt they were training the student, not teaching perfect 'form'.

Of course many traditions do the same. All of the Yammani kobodu video are nothing like the originals, as I've been told, purpousefully changed because the original is only taught in a very close group.

Other arts do the same. Eagle Claw's Shum Leung's videos do not share the complete way to perform the forms he demonstrates and teaches. He leaves all of the power details off. I'm sure it has more to do with they have to be experienced from a live instructor as much as let's hide the best parts.

Would any of you hand any Uechi video to someone and tell them they now are Uechi stylists?

But be they exact or be they changed, there are still lessons there, even if not the ones some might want.

IMO,

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:38 am

Hi Victor,

No, learning from a video does not make one an expert, but in my opinion videos are teaching aids that should help students and thus should present information accurately.

I enjoy the Matayoshi videos/DVDs in terms of viewing his performances, and I think the more-or-less seemless adlibing he did reflected his mastery of the kata. On one Okinawa DVD for example he did a nice bo demonstration that combined techniques from the five Matayoshi bo kata, not many could do that convincingly.

But in my opinion his presentations do not preserve his kobudo, nor were they likely meant to, they merely provide a flavor. Instructors who alter kata when being recorded see personal face-to-face instruction as the only means of preservation, preservation for a select few. While there is value to that strategy and it is certainly the instructor's right, the videos need to be honestly marketed as such and not sold as instructional material.

I should note that my feelings on this come from being a college instructor. I view accuracy in instructional materials is fundamental to their usefulness. There would not be much use for a video in my geography class if it purposefully presented incorrect information, no matter who was presenting it. But of course not everyone buys martial arts demo videos for instructional purposes nor is everyone concerned if there are inaccuracies, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:31 am

Hi Glen,

I think you're on the right track.

Most video amout to little but a show. Perhaps that is what makes Nishiuchi Sensei's video a bit more interesting, as it's obviously part of what he and his students are really doing.

Matayoshi's video record is a mixed bag, of course I'm an outsider of those traditions, but the Japanese ones, with his students performing, reveal much more about his system than the 'American' version, from my observation.

But teaching my arts for over 30 years I realize only live instruction ever gets to the heart of what is to be studied. The best video record of a kata, doesn't show the years of work, layers of training and correction and more training, to make that presentation possible.

For myself, when I dissociate my role of instructor from that of interested observer (not truly a researcher, just someone looking) I find the video record of little use for my students, and if they've trained long enough to keep pressing the point, offer that when they're ready we can make a video of their own efforts to study.

My friend in Cambridge who trained with Matayoshi in Okinawa preserves Matayoshi's art in his practice far more than a video, as far as I can see.

Where I sit I can see dozens of videos people from around the world have shared with me. And what is now on the internet is even a vaster represnetaion of arts.

Still they allow but a glimpse.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:44 pm

Victor Smith wrote: Most video amout to little but a show. Perhaps that is what makes Nishiuchi Sensei's video a bit more interesting, as it's obviously part of what he and his students are really doing.

I haven't seen any of Nishiuchi's videos yet, but I keep hearing about them and should check them out. My current Uechi/kobudo instructor first learned kobudo under Nishiuchi, and Nishiuchi's instructor Takashi Kinjo.

Matayoshi's video record is a mixed bag, of course I'm an outsider of those traditions, but the Japanese ones, with his students performing, reveal much more about his system than the 'American' version, from my observation.

Yes, I like the Japanese-made one that I have, what his students demonstrate is very close to what I do.

But teaching my arts for over 30 years I realize only live instruction ever gets to the heart of what is to be studied. The best video record of a kata, doesn't show the years of work, layers of training and correction and more training, to make that presentation possible.

For myself, when I dissociate my role of instructor from that of interested observer (not truly a researcher, just someone looking) I find the video record of little use for my students, and if they've trained long enough to keep pressing the point, offer that when they're ready we can make a video of their own efforts to study.

My friend in Cambridge who trained with Matayoshi in Okinawa preserves Matayoshi's art in his practice far more than a video, as far as I can see.

Where I sit I can see dozens of videos people from around the world have shared with me. And what is now on the internet is even a vaster represnetaion of arts.

Still they allow but a glimpse.

Recently I've become interested in the martial arts instructional VCDs coming out of China, largely because they present styles/forms I've heard of but never seen before but also because they are so much cheaper than DVDs.
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd-title.htm
Like a lot of DVDs, they repeat the forms from multiple angles and multiple speeds, so they are meant for instruction. But there is no way for me to tell if the forms are being presented accurately. Like you say though, they allow a glimpse at forms I would never be able to see otherwise (although sites like youtube are changing that).

And occassionally they can trigger some insite that I can explore through practice, which has been the most value to me of any footage.

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:30 pm

Glen,

One VCD I can vouch for is this form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkvxxuqoenI the 5 animal 8 shape form.

A discontinued kung fu magazine published most of it in great detail, how to perform, error detection and applications, that I have 10 of the 12 sections, and the VCD, which this clip was take from, is a 2 hour exposition on the form, how to perform it and its applications (alas all in Chinese but between the translated material and the raw demonstrations it's impressive).

You might check it out. That form is an incredible wealth of techniques.