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 Post subject: Enlightenment
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm 
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Enlightenment and Sanchin

A difficult subject to say the least ,but lets start with something pretty simple .It is possible to be enlightened on any subject ,such as a penny drops ,and we get the message of that particular subject ,or for years on end we don't ,then at times we suddenly do ,it could be a intellectual answer ,or a very practical answer .

I have noted over the course of a number of years the word "Enlightenment " is used in many situations ,this now leads to much more deeper enquiries ,the latter types also having a valid part to play in human existence .
Deeper types of enlightement are much rarer ,so there is a understandable reason to deny there very existance [deeper types of enlightenment ] the real opposite of enlightenment is barriers set up internally within .

Back to the latter everyday types of when we say " That was Enlightening " the enlightenment as to break through a barrier inside us that is enveloped in the unknown ,but now the penny as dropped ,and something as been removed ?and what as been removed as now been replaced ,it could be a very simple type of understanding ,but that understanding as just replaced something else .
We could be involved in this series of subject /senario type enlightenments all ones life ,yet never touch the deeper types.

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 Post subject: Interesting topic Max...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:02 pm 
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I guess to some people, any level of consciousness and/or awareness developed through the practice of something like karate, would be considered to be a type of "enlightenment".

Each of us define such terms in our own way. The difficulty and disagreements arise when we attempt to convince others, that what we have defined as "enlightenment" is the same enlightenment as defined by someone else. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:54 pm 
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gmattson wrote:
I guess to some people, any level of consciousness and/or awareness developed through the practice of something like karate, would be considered to be a type of "enlightenment".

Each of us define such terms in our own way. The difficulty and disagreements arise when we attempt to convince others, that what we have defined as "enlightenment" is the same enlightenment as defined by someone else. :)


Thanks Gem sensei, " Each of us define such terms in our own way "

Very true indeed ,which is why I started the topic on more or less common ground for us all . we all experience something of various degrees of difficulty ,and what I mean here is there was a [difficulty] in the way of what was eventually learned /apprehended by any one of us ,I for one understand this.
My other point is; things mental or physical by nature associated with this "enlightening "a barrier was removed for that mental or physical state to be enlightened ,yet for the third difficult part associated with spirit also ,a very serious build up of doubt needs to be removed for the entrance of a three pronged enlightenment .
Max.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:15 pm 
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Max, you're a very cool dude. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:40 am 
Max I cant help thinking that a lot of our real learning is actually taking away .

enlightenment is a difficult term , but when those mental barriers fall , or the paradigm shifts , I dont know what else to call it .

I`ve been thinking of a quote I heard the last few days , as a tradesman I think youll relate

Whats important is what you learn , after you`ve learned everything .

that perhaps is a form of enlightenment


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:04 pm 
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Hi Markus ,
Yes its a type of enlightenment .

When this experience presents its self to us such as ; that was very enlightening ,we merge ,lose discriminating thoughts actions behavior or other wise ,we are happy in this yet new learning ,but there is still a long way to go .
With this insight however small ,we are on "Common Ground" There is no disagrement whatsoever for the instant or duration with others any subject you wish to bring to the table ,were we say "that was enlightening ".

Its a universal experience .but when we are in a different frame of mind we might wish to argue about two spiders climibng up a wall

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:43 am 
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At this point or duration in time we are on very solid common ground ,the experience can be fleeting or a bit more lasting yet the characteristic that bonds us temporary
is the" sudden knowing " this knowing is of a different order to our ordinary discriminating one .
And within that knowing all contradictions about the subject disappear ,and we have instantaenous knowing .

And sometimes because it happens so quick like ,no time to study,
we are back in discriminating land ,and we start all over once again to re-connect with what suits us at the time [our specific mood ] and the experience is logged etc, but the whole idea of "common ground " as been missed ,the I that is us is not evolved enough to catch on to this type of special language of knowing without words.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:13 am 
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Discriminating thoughts ,are a brickwall that seperates one from Enlightenment .

In the other posts on;"that was enlightening" we lose completely discriminating thoughts ,in other words we have been momentary showered by neuropeptides on one hand ,and a deeper part of ourselves "knows" on the other .
Understanding is instanteaneous,this understanding does not require discriminating thought patterns that we take as gospel to our interactions in the course of our lives .

This understanding is a kind of gelling agent that blends one with the problem of our level ,and resolves temporary the menace of dulistic thought action behavioural engagement with our life .

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:25 am 
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having spent time studing authentic Rinzai Zen. i would say true Zen enlightenment is nothing special really. it is the falling away of the internal dialog that goes on in ones head. a returning to the original mind. the internal "talk" creates a duality in your head. the moment you think or analize its gone.
love the topic and will write more later..

steve


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:29 pm 
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from the perspective of zen "enlightenment" sanchin is the perfect embodyment of "correct mind" practice. most zen schools holds Zazen or meditation as the standard practice with periods of Kinhin (walking). the sitting posture is the same as sanchin . ears over shoulders over hips, an aligned spine. all zen practice follows a prescription of action timed with the breath while maintaining "correct mind" or a focus on the task at hand. this is sanchin is it not? but the difference between common sanchin practice and a zen master doing sanchin is great. zen enlightenment is not have too minds at the same time. as an example, doing the arm thrust and at the same time analizing the arm thrust and saying to oneself remember to keep your elbows in. that is duality of the mind. there are levels of this no mind state and eventually the student will feel that the hand shot out on its own accord rather then him throwing it on purpose. this is partialy because he was not thinking " ok get ready now throw the hand now , but keep the elbows in" instead he was mearly "watching" his body. like watching a fishing pole waiting for a bite. eventually it happens. you can not controll and regulate the mind with the mind because you would need two. so we controll and regulate our breath timed with action. the action will then regulate the mind.

steve


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:13 am 
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i would say the "waking up" of the mind comes from that initial connection between a group of nuro net paths in one area of the brain with a group of different nuro paths from a different area. that first connection creates that "dawning" feeling that changes everything. this can apply to many areas within the brain and zen enlightenment is working with this in a specific area that creates the ego the "i" "me" "mine" . nurologists know this area of the brain develops around the age of 2 thus the terrible twos when thats all you hear is mine, mine, mine.
we hear that internal voice in our heads. it is only created within a section of the brain. but it becomes so strong that we think this "voice" is what controlls the machine. if we are able to quiet this voice and strengthen other specific areas we might find that the machine runs independent of the voice and that that voice is only giving us the "play by play" and commentarys.

steve


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:17 am 
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Hi Steve ,

Thanks for your thoughts and experience.

It would be nice to hear more on your Rinzai training ? I did some in the eighties ,at some intensive weekend training's ,but my own experience I owe to Sanchin ,and I say this as my choice of total developement .
Max.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:19 am 
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well like i said before sanchin is the perfect moving zen. if you care to view it that way. my training was in an authentic zen tradition but the founder was also a japanese sword master and calligrapher so the lineage has a warriors slant on it which i could really relate to. sitting on a pillow meditating is a more direct path but moving and doing sanchin i would say is easier. in the same way doing sanchin for 3 years is more direct but learning other kata and kumite ect is easier.

this topic is so very difficult to disscus in person never mind put down in type.
i think the mystery of japanese culture still gets in the way. language barriers and all. so the word satori would be translated to "enlightenment" but in english that word can have several meanings were satori does not. and unless you can sit and define what it is not , you can not always grasp what it is. i sometimes use love as an analogy. if an adult tries to explain adult love to a 5 year old , we might use terms like "butterflies in the stomach" "floating on cloud nine" "getting sweaty palms" however the 5 year old will still not see the allure to the opposite sex and probably thinks "whats so great about getting sweaty palms?" all the talk about cloud nine can actually confuse more then explain. the child wonders how we can get up that high to sit on the cloud and are the clouds really numbered?
in the same way talking about satori can distract and confuse. only after you experience it, do you say " oh ok i get it now" and then you realize its not that big a deal, you did not gain anything its not something so mystical after all. most of us know now that there is nothing so mystical about asian fighting arts either. but back in the 50's and 60's we thought there was.

steve


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:19 pm 
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hoshin wrote:
well like i said before sanchin is the perfect moving zen. if you care to view it that way. my training was in an authentic zen tradition but the founder was also a japanese sword master and calligrapher so the lineage has a warriors slant on it which i could really relate to. sitting on a pillow meditating is a more direct path but moving and doing sanchin i would say is easier. in the same way doing sanchin for 3 years is more direct but learning other kata and kumite ect is easier.

this topic is so very difficult to disscus in person never mind put down in type.
i think the mystery of japanese culture still gets in the way. language barriers and all. so the word satori would be translated to "enlightenment" but in english that word can have several meanings were satori does not. and unless you can sit and define what it is not , you can not always grasp what it is. i sometimes use love as an analogy. if an adult tries to explain adult love to a 5 year old , we might use terms like "butterflies in the stomach" "floating on cloud nine" "getting sweaty palms" however the 5 year old will still not see the allure to the opposite sex and probably thinks "whats so great about getting sweaty palms?" all the talk about cloud nine can actually confuse more then explain. the child wonders how we can get up that high to sit on the cloud and are the clouds really numbered?
in the same way talking about satori can distract and confuse. only after you experience it, do you say " oh ok i get it now" and then you realize its not that big a deal, you did not gain anything its not something so mystical after all. most of us know now that there is nothing so mystical about asian fighting arts either. but back in the 50's and 60's we thought there was.

steve


Steve thanks,
It is difficult to express in word's no question about that , but we attempt here and there .

Satori or in chinese [Wu] its really another name that preceeds the other and in turn Wu is preceeded by a term used by the Budda to describe the experience [annuttara-samyak-sambodhi] " In truth,so long as we confine our-selves to intellection ,however deep ,subtle, sublime and enlightening ,we fail to see into the gist of the matter. "

max.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:17 pm 
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The difficulty of words on the subject , my time was limited yesterday so I will pick up were I left off.

Using the term satori which imparts the subject matter we attempt to relate ,satori as different depths dependant upon the level of inquiry it could be narrow and shallow ,or it could be broad and deep ,this reflects in some measure the effort to sanchin practice and understanding the inner man .
Lets say we experience a[satori ]its quality will reflect the prajna that illuminate's ,pranja represents the wisdom element of satori,and this wisdom element dictates the depth
Max

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