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 Post subject: Gun disarms
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:28 am 
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Posts: 3700
Trained some disarms today for the first time in a long while. I've trained disarms a lot in the past but today it was a different and more realistic. Just some observations.

1. A gun in S/A reduces the chances of success a lot more than when it's in D/A mode. For spot checking we were using a Sig with a trigger pull of DA 12 lbs. and SA 4.5 lbs. This really helped us not to fall into the rubber gun or air soft only feeling of success especially when in single action. I think I was about 55% success in DA and maybe 1% success in SA.

2. If you f-up the initial move you could be in one helluva tussle even with someone who has never held a gun before. Wrestling for a gun really *****. I learned some nice tricks for when it happens but still not fun. I think the longer it went on the more things I had to account for like where the barrel was pointing and who had control of the gun at that moment.

3. Have at least as many hands involved in controlling the gun as the other guy. This becomes apparent as soon as resistance is added to the training.

4. Practice, practice, practice different scenarios.

5. Get instruction from someone who has trained the subject because his life depended on it. These folks are somewhat rare so don't pass up an opportunity to train with them. While you can learn some neat disarm tricks from many instructors you will likely also be taught some techniques that just don't work in the real world. Cool and flashy don't make something good.

6. Boy do I ****** at disarms.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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And when you add the 'chemical cocktail' to the equation..... :wink:

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 Post subject: Your so right!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:26 am
Posts: 145
Location: Around the World
Over the last 20 years we have seen many different ways to disarm an attacker – Some are ego based, some are fiction and some even worked at one time, or just for the moment.

I find it amazing when after we show the one we have used to save our own life there is always others trying to defend their way without realizing that there are many ways to skin a cat but you use the one that best fits you.

You need to take into account your own fit. Fits your body make up, size, strength, skill level and most importantly fits the situation you are in. Which is why we have a set protocol for why we teach a certain technique over others?
Here are some considerations in our protocol we use:

1. Must WORK!

2. Teach the technique in 3 steps – Anything more than 3 steps they will forget it under stress!

3. Must be able to do the SAME technique standing, on the ground, right or left hand, both hands, front or behind them etc...If it is not the same technique then you are wasting their time (and NOT SAVING THEIR LIFE) if you think they will practice it all of the different ways you taught them with the different variables your WRONG!.

4. Must be able to work on various sizes of people, and from various angles.

5. Must fit into the most common methods of attacks - which we have a lot of reach on this topic now on how people are attacked.

It is nice to see you again MikeK!

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Dave
Stay Safe, Stay Strong, STAY ALIVE!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
The Marine program, MCMAP, has quite a few disarm techniques in it. Most are introduced at the 4th level - brown belt. Equally important is the number of retention techniques in the program. We did lots of reps of all of them.

To pass the belt tests you need to be able to do them flawlessly. In the advanced 'instructor trainer' course one of the requirements was to fight off an attacker going for your handgun after you were sprayed with OC. If the attacker got your M9, you got to back and start over instead of heading to the decontamination area (a garden hose). Good motivator.

I used to meet at least once a week with the senior MCMAP staff aty Quantico and we really went at it. At that point they were using dummy Berettas so there was no chance of being shot with anything. I noticed that some were not getting the correct feedback so one day I brought up some airsoft pistols to give better feedback. Not much pain but you knew if you were hit. If you were hit in the hand or finger you did get a stinger. The use of airsoft is now much more widespread but I am pretty certain I was the fisrt to use them in a MCMAP class, at least at Quantico.

They eventually acquired quite a few of them but they did not hold up well to military training. One day the senior noncom was so disappointed with the airsofts he sent someone to Dick's Sporting Goods during chow to get a bunch of Crossman pellet guns. Now, that hurts. There is a pain penalty if you goof as the pellet will definitely bury into your hand, finger, knuckle... That is definitely feedback.

Whenever doing this kind of training eye protection is extremely important. I was never hit in the eye with a projectile but once during a disarm fight a major managed to rip the firearm from my hand violently (I did not want to give it up) and swung it in an arc such that the butt slammed into my eye on the way by. Fortunately I was wearing my super heavy duty metal frame Lexan lense safety glasses or I would have had serious eye damage. The cracking sound was so loud everyone in the gym stopped training to see what the noise was. I now use those glasses as safety awareness demos!

Even with eyepro you are at risk. One LT I know was hit in the eye with a simunition that went between his eyepro and his face nearly vertically and literally peeled back his cornea. The cornea did not rip completely off so surprisingly it healed back into place with no vision loss. Wow.

Occasionally I will do some of this in the gym with the Uechi class but not very often because of the safety risks. Perhaps I should do it a bit more.

Rich

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:17 pm 
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We've used Airsoft and they are great for a bit of feedback while the faux hand guns are rugged. But along with those two I now believe you really have to also test against the real thing. At least for me the difference between a 12 lb. pull and a 4.5 lb pull was big when it came to distance and the time between him reacting and having the hammer come down. A real eye opener. I'll have to ask Don about the home brewed simunitions that his bunch used for training.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:26 am
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Location: Around the World
MikeK wrote:
We've used Airsoft and they are great for a bit of feedback while the faux hand guns are rugged. But along with those two I now believe you really have to also test against the real thing. At least for me the difference between a 12 lb. pull and a 4.5 lb pull was big when it came to distance and the time between him reacting and having the hammer come down. A real eye opener. I'll have to ask Don about the home brewed simunitions that his bunch used for training.

------------------------------------------------------------
MikeK

Over the last 20 years we have used everything from water guns, wooden rubber band guns, air guns, beebee, pellets, blanks with and without the cotten wadding, simunitions, to airsoft and a lot of companies in between.

All of course have various pros and cons. The AirSoft we use is very different from the sporting ones you buy in K-or Walmart or available for a civilian purchase.

These Airsoft weapons are motified to fit our needs of a more durable gun with a more true to form trigger pull and slide operation, changes made in the barrel to allow us to fire the weapon immediately after having the firearm submerged in the water along with a few other things.

We recommend that in addition to approved eye protection, face, throat and neck protection is worn as well.

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Dave
Stay Safe, Stay Strong, STAY ALIVE!


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