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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:33 am 
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So the third time over three years that I got this correction, it finally stuck.

Hirate kamae = flat hand fighting position. It could actually be called "slightly cupped hand fighting postion" This is the ubiquitous "post" position that your hands are in at the start of kanshiwa kata. Ok - here's the correction I've finally internalized.

The hand is slightly cupped. Basic right? Absolutely - but over the years my hand had flattened a bit as I was training to keep my elbows in and to wacky explosive things. I just wasn't paying attention to my hands. So now I am again.
Here's a hand:
Image
Obviously not in anything close to the desired postition.
here's a hand that (without the tiny laptop) is actually pretty close to the desired position:
Image

The important thing that I wasn't focusing on is the ridge that is just under where your fingers join your palm. I was unconsciously pushing that ridge forward which was busting the alignment of my hand.

Of course this is tied to my recent fandango with jar training. If the head of the jar you're grabbind is the correct size - then all you need to do is let go of the jars and bring your hands up in front of you in the same position and voila - hirate kamae!

happy cupping,
Dana

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:45 am 
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Of course the next question is, why?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:07 pm 
Isnt it just a case of strentgh and structure Dana ?

without the fingers straight the chance of jamming the joints are minimised .

Cupping aids in a power slap

and its closer to grabbing position like you mentioned .

I do my nukites like this , and bushikens , and theres the same curve on my cranes beak strike , even Bushikens .

with the hand cupped as well as the fingers curled the finger tips still align directly with the wrist , and the hand/fingers become a little shock absorber if necessary , with just the fingers , it is just the fingers , and they can be more likely to fold (albeit into a safer position than jamming if they were straight)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:43 pm 
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yep - it is hard to grab anything if the ridge of your palm is pushing out. It is kind of how you stand on your feet - you don't push the bottom ridge (i.e. the ball) of the foot out when you stand - you let it relax and make a natural arc. - natural movement, I think, is key.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:16 am 
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Quote:
Cupping aids in a power slap

and its closer to grabbing position like you mentioned .

I do my nukites like this , and bushikens , and theres the same curve on my cranes beak strike , even Bushikens .

with the hand cupped as well as the fingers curled the finger tips still align directly with the wrist , and the hand/fingers become a little shock absorber if necessary , with just the fingers , it is just the fingers , and they can be more likely to fold (albeit into a safer position than jamming if they were straight)


Marcus, Is this the Shotokan method of Nukite??

When I used to practice my kata at the health club , I had run into a Shotokan 3rd dan. He and I talked and compare kata. He told me about hiscracked ribs and injurys gotten in tourneys :|


He said he like my hip rotation during sanchin.
Then h told me I did nukite wrongand then he showed me the Shotokan way. At the time I thought to myself "yeah... whatever dude" and went on my way.
Anywayswhat you describe seems what he showed me.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:59 pm 
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How do we practice to not lose fingers to a blade when we go into kamae?

Remember Kamae becomes a subconscious reflex.

Not "well if I see a blade I won't Kamae"

Has anyone ever asked this question of Kanei Uechi and other masters?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:10 pm 
No Ben nothing official about it .

have been shown a few shotokan ways :roll: :lol:

just what worksfor me when used in application, the three fingers all lined up finger tip wise and the loose natural curve .


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:32 pm 
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My understanding, based on what Rory has written over the years, is that most of the time a knife that is being used for business enters the fight without warning during closing or at engagement.

If someone is stand 6 feet away from you wielding/flashing a knife then they want you do something or they want to do something to you more than they want to cut/slash/hack at you - though they may be planning to do that after whatever else is the first step in their plan. The same if the knife is against a part of your body for coercion.

That being said - I'd much rather lose my hands than my face and will happily close with my hands in front of my face to get to the point where I can address the threat. By that point - I'll know it is going to be a bad day.

So how I'm holding my hands won't be nearly as important as getting down to business in my mind.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:58 pm 
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So there is:
-sanchin kamae
-even handed hirate kamae
-the mixed sanchin/hirate kamae at the end of Seisan
-the uneven hirate kamae
-morote shoken kamae (there are three of these - one where they are stacked on top of each other, one where they are in sanchin position, and one where they point at each other)
-what else...

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:18 pm 
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"So how I'm holding my hands won't be nearly as important as getting down to business in my mind."

I disagree, I think that the hands in the Sanchin guard stance are in the right place to control somebodies elbows, and therefore their hands...and if they have a knife in their hands then you would control that as well by proxy.................now I wouldn't ever go up against a knife, but if I didn't know it was there, then the idea of controlling his elbows would be very usefull :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:11 pm 
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Dana,

I agree with your post about the knife ‘entering’ without warning most of the times.

But knife attacks can be very unpredictable in the ways they happen, and this is what I anticipate_ might happen and how it relates to our instinctive responses.

There will times when a blade is deployed in time for one to see it, even for mere instants _ such as in a mugging that places the victim into momentary shock and denial, who will next suddenly be faced with a slashing thrusting blade at the whim of the attacker.

It is at that moment that our ‘programming’ will take over, by the placement of our hands and arms possibly in a Kamae position with the extended fingers and the arm’s ‘underbelly’ facing the slash and thrust.

Quote:
That being said - I'd much rather lose my hands than my face and will happily close with my hands in front of my face to get to the point where I can address the threat. By that point - I'll know it is going to be a bad day.


Yes, I agree. I am trying to explore alternate ways to use arms and hands in minimizing the terrible cuts to the underside of the forearms that can put someone into shock in about 5 seconds during that chaotic moment.

The objective is to limit the number and locations of your injuries. If an attacker slashes with a knife we want TO LEARN To ‘zone’ and use the back of the arms to pass the attack

To limit the contact to the least vulnerable side of the arms (less bleeding). And to protect the sides of the neck. Wes Tasker teaches this good protective method. This way

If we do get slashed, even badly, we don't bleed as much and the muscle/tendons that are cut control the opening of the hand. We would still be fairly able to make a fist and fight.

Lewt’s look at this frightening clip_ and how difficult it really is to ‘stop’ a crazed attacker even using blunt weapons.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca ... taboct.wmv


This is a good article about survival against the knife.


http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=509

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