Seichin

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Seichin

Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:26 pm

Once again I open the pages of one of my favorite books. For those who know the kata - when you turn after the second shukoken osaiay movement (wrist strike and grab)

Which arm is in front as you cross the arms in or uncross the arms out?
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:04 pm

And what is your thinking about whatever way you're doing it?
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Postby mhosea » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:00 am

Gushi and Mattson have the right hand in front. However, on the OKIKUKAI DVD, the demonstrator has the left hand in front, same with Alan Dollar on his DVD. Alan Dollar also has the left in front in Kanshu, whereas the OKIKUKAI DVD has a different demonstrator for Kanshu who puts the right hand in front. There is a video on this site from the 1992 championships in Okinawa which shows a group demonstration of Seichin. The quality of the video isn't that good, but I think the group has the left in front, at least some of them do. The 1993 video has Kanshu, and I think 3 of the 4 demonstrators have the right in front. Not sure of the other, but my best guess there is left. The emphasis is on the outward motion, is it not, as if to spread the opponent's guard?

(BTW, I have the right hand in front, not that this would be of much interest at my level.)
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Postby Dana Sheets » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:09 am

I have found that if I just focus in pushing their arms apart I and competely unsucessful. So I apply one of my favorite maxims - fight the man not the arms - and I use their arms to disrupt their balance. As soon as the balance is starting to go then the arms will open through the rest of the technique. So I focus on first contact being directed through their center.

Also you might have fun thinking about distance and then watching your hands - they go through a very nice raking motion. I've taken, of late, to doing these moves with my hands in hirakens instead of seikens to remind myself of this raking motion. Raking works well on the inside of arms, the throat, across the face, etc.

Which hand is in front will depend on the interpretation you're focusing on. I find that if I start my application while I'm turning my hands go one way. If I start my application (in my mind) after the turn my hands will go another.

What is important to me, during those movements, is to not let the shoulders tighten up - once that happens the technique becomes very weak.
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Postby mhosea » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:38 pm

Now that you mention it, I've also seen something very like this move performed in kumite 1 in two different ways. With the right hand in front as you block a right punch to the inside, as well as crossing the arms, i.e. blocking with the left in front (I think it's depicted that way in Ihor Rymaruk's book, but I don't have it handy, so I can't be sure). For a raking action to follow, the right hand needs to be in front against the right punch, the left against a left.

I like it when we talk about Uechi-ryu here. :D
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Postby MikeK » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:19 pm

Seichin is one of the few kata that I still try to do. Generally I think of the arm cross as a trap/elbow pop counter to a grap or slow puncher (ala Heian Nidan/Pinan Shodan), which sets up the next move. Another is a splitting movement against an attempted two handed grab (ala Heian Yondan), with a follow up of grabbing the opponents head for the turn. Yet another I really like is a simultaneous block and forearm strike to the others guys neck (Rory shows this on one of the camp videos).

Oh, for me arm in front matches whichever foot is in front.
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Postby M J Brelsford » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:42 pm

Kanei said...

Same hand same foot, that simple.

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Postby mhosea » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:51 pm

M J Brelsford wrote:Kanei said...

Same hand same foot, that simple.

Mark


Can you provide some insight to the "why" of this simple rule?
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Postby M J Brelsford » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:08 pm

Kanei explained that it was a stronger position. I guess that could be questioned depending on what "hand" you are. He also stated it was better for movement and control.

Something to ponder I guess...

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Postby 2Green » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:20 am

Wow -- never heard anyone mention that before :"same hand, same foot"...

I think I've always done it as right hand on top, but I'm going to give this a major re-visit/re-think and see what I can find.

I think Seichin is Uechi's "lost Kata", one student described it as "the hardest to learn and the easiest to forget".

I've always loved it and still do, even though Seisan is my current focus.
I try to get 3 Seichin's in, every class.

Great info, and thanks!

~N~
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Postby Dana Sheets » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:22 pm

Thanks everyone. I like talking about Uechi too...hmm...maybe you already knew that. :D

hmmm...stronger....hmmm

So are both hands hitting the same thing, or even in the same place -are both hands even hitting?

If you link that move to the next you're opening the centerline so you can slide in and bash 'em and snag 'em with the boshikens. There are lots of ways to open the centerline.

You can snap your arms out so hard that you break the grip of the attacker - which means they've already got their hands on you, or you on them.

Mr. Thompson often showed this move as opposing forces - the forward hand raking in a circle forward and the rear hand with a slight circular back motion - the forward hand going up and the rear hand going down - so sending 4 vectors of force out to confuse uke's body.

So that's two arms contacting two arms. Only one idea.

What if it was two fists raking across two eyes, or an eye and a cheek?

Or one arm and one face?

Keeping in mind that most of these moves were developed at a time when most of the people doing them were of a similar height.

So do folks cross their arms shut as they turn around or turn around in flat hand kamae and then cross the arms in and then out?
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Postby MikeK » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:45 pm

You can snap your arms out so hard that you break the grip of the attacker - which means they've already got their hands on you, or you on them.


I'm not sure about that move as it's a strength move and while it may break someones grip it doesn't give any real advantage. The other reason I'm not sure about that particular application in regards to the kata is the next move.

Draw hands to waist and slide forward, striking out waist high, much as in the opening for sanchin. Clench hands into shokens turned inwards while pulling your arms in to brace your elbows on your body. You're grabbing your opponent's flesh/gi, so your hands won't be "shoulder-high" as usual unless you can lift someone right off the ground.
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The grab move is good, but you are dropping your guard, which to me implies that the preceding arm cross has got to injure or at the very least give the opponent something else to think about while you're moving in. In a nut shell that arm cross better be rocking the BG's world for at least a second while you go in close with no guard.

Now I'm not a Uechi guy but just giving an opinion on how I view my favorite Uechi kata.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:37 pm

yah - so just because their hands are on you doesn't mean they've yet gotten a good grip on you. It is the moment before the grab that you most easily disrupt them. After their hand are on you you'll need an atemi of some kind - (weight shift, fake, spit, flick the eyes, headbutt, knee to the groin, bite, etc.)

So are your hands/arms moving out as you turn or after you've landed the turn?

And for that double hit/grab shoken move - remember that the hands that were meant to do those moves were hands that had gripped the jars everyday, that had been brushed in heated sand everyday, that had done chisi work everyday. So it is a move that is meant for very strong hands...not by those of us who specialize in keyboarding
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Postby MikeK » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:19 pm

Hand strength doesn't matter as much when the other guy has other ideas about letting you grab him and knocks you out before you can sink those babies in. Been there, done that , got to see the stars and birdies. :lol:

I just checked, and my arms are out as I turn with the idea of not leading with my face. I do the inner pop right after the turn. Probably not Uechi standard, but I'm not seeing the attack as a double handed grab. Just my slightly skewed world view. :lol:
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Postby mhosea » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:23 pm

MikeK wrote:Probably not Uechi standard, but I'm not seeing the attack as a double handed grab. Just my slightly skewed world view. :lol:


I have no idea if it's "skewed" at all. I would like to hear more from people who have trained applications of this move against an even slightly resisting opponent.

I can only speculate, although tonight I will ask Fedele what he thinks and enlist some help to experiment. I do agree with you that as a simple removal followed by an inside grab it would be suicidal, but perhaps some variations matter. Going with the two-arm grab interpretation, if you break, then slide in and try to grab inside his guard, then he has a clear head shot. One way to mitigate that risk is to disrupt his balance, but I'm not sure how to work that into the move as choreographed. Sometimes in Shorin Ryu simultaneous moves are practiced in successon or slightly out of order, so the break-slide-grab might work as slidebreak-grab. Another possibility that strikes my fancy a little better is that there is a clinch between the break and grab.
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