The Story of Respect

[AAAhmed46]

True...

But Karate Do was never meant to be a sport. Sport martial arts is a byproduct of karate. MMA is a byproduct of a mixture of striking and grappling arts.

Sport practitioners will have the advantage in a sport arena.

Those who train in the modern military will have the advantage on the battlefield.

Karate do is a way of life - hence the "Do" part. It traditionally is what men did to preserve their body of knowledge in fighting when there was peace. We study it and savor it the way we enjoy reading Musashi's Book of Five Rings. We may never pick up a katana, but we will know how to engage in conflict in the general sense.

It's kind of like weight lifting. It won't teach you how to fight. But you're dead in the MMA ring if you don't do any. It builds a foundation, and you go where you want with it.

As for MMA, well... An original musician friend of mine had a saying. "What will they call Alternative (a genre of music) when it becomes mainstream?" MMA is nothing more than a filtering process designed to give you a collection of tools to bring inside a sporting ring. You drill what you need for sport, and discard the rest. No eye gouges needed. No multiple opponent scenario training needed. No VSD or legal training needed. No biting needed. No force continuum needed. Etc., etc., etc. You specialize so that you can optimize for that venue.

And when it comes time for competition, only the elite genetic specimens survive the process.

Some styles are especially suited for the MMA ring, since that's how they optimize their arts. Muay Thai and BJJ come to mind.

Ultimately as time evolves, "MMA" won't be. It'll be its own thing. It'll be (gasp) a style of martial art.

And in the next generation, the new kid on the block will "dis" it.

- Bill

Face it, lots of MMA is more martial then karate.

Yeah they dont do multiple opponent scenario's or eye pokes.


But what karate school does? Most i have seen, and i have see alot, do NOT.

Those that practice multiple opponent, do not do so in an ''alive'' manner, the eye pokes: How many schools put on goggles and actually practiced them?

If you cant hit someones big chin with your big fist, then you cant hit a little eye with your little finger.



Of coarse, many SCHOOLS are exeptions. Remember, it comes down to the SCHOOL.

But the current state of the art must be improved unfortunatly.

Im not bashing karate(i study it) but we cant go around saying ''well, we train for the street'' when many do not.


And MMA will always be a ruleset, not a style.

Take two different MMA schools that teach just MMA, they have a different approche.


Whatever is in the background of the fighter comes out. GSP is a karateka, it shows in his fights.

It's like san shou, people say it's a style, but really it's a ruleset, Tai chi people fight in san shou.

[Bill Glasheen]

Yeah they dont do multiple opponent scenario's or eye pokes.


But what karate school does?

We do.

You'd love my barroom brawl scenario training. We probably do more of that than the traditional "dual" which most people call sparring.

Those that practice multiple opponent, do not do so in an ''alive'' manner, the eye pokes: How many schools put on goggles and actually practiced them?

It's obvious to me from your language that you don't understand eye extraction.

For starters... Everything you need technique-wise is in Sanchin. And I am not talking about the nukite thrusts.

The shomen hajiki in the hojoundo - FWIW - is not a final technique. It's a setup, like a boxer's jab. You're flicking the eyes the way you snap someone with a towel.

Have you read Grossman's book On Killing? Other than the specific technique used to do this, the scenario training required to "pull the trigger" so to speak is vital. Not everyone has the stomach to do this. But if you practice it right, then you can do it if your life is on the line.

All the tools can be found in a grocery store, FWIW.

Im not bashing karate(i study it) but we cant go around saying ''well, we train for the street'' when many do not.

You just contradicted yourself. You didn't mean to, but you did...

I am not responsible for every Tom, Dick, and Harry martial whatever (mixed or unmixed) who dons a gi, silk shorts, or new wave cammo. We are our own keepers.

And MMA will always be a ruleset, not a style.

I disagree.

You don't think judo is a style? It's a sport manifestation of jujitsu. You don't think kendo is a style? It's a sport manifestation of iaido. You don't think Western Boxing is a style? It's a sport manifestation of bareknuckle brawling. Many would argue that at least one of those arts I mentioned are styles.

BTW, ever done paintball combat? Think about it...

Have you seen the "soft weapon" movement going on? Seen Filipino knife sparring? You have no idea what you are missing. (Invite Raffi some time... )

And there will be more...

- Bill

[Stryke]

you dont understand Bill ? , priceless

[Bill Glasheen]

you dont understand Bill ? , priceless

The management is pleased that you are entertained, Marcus. I would call that added value.

Perhaps you'd like to tell everyone here the specific technique I'm talking about.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

We do scenario training as well, but we actively actually do them, it isn't part of any previous curriculum other then our own. I notice the vast, vast majority of karate schools don't scenario training but claim to be street fighters while other systems are not.

I'm not saying you don't, i don't doubt you or your school's focus on self-defense.

But to speak of the condition of the entire style(karate) being RBSD oriented, i have to disagree.

I mean lots of clubs train to focus on tournament fighting, or are heavy kata oriented(not in a good way)




MMA will not be a style because the rule set is very open. I think there will be common practices, hell there already are. But lots of successful MMA fighters will fine tune in some way or the other.

Look at Muay thai competitions under Muay thai rules.

yeah muay thai it self is a style, but the top thai boxers often cross training in karate or TKD to improve thier striking to win, often they cross train in boxing to improve their punching.

The only time you dont see that is Thailand, because most fighters cant afford to cross train, those that can afford it often do cross train.

Look at K1. It's been around forever, it's a rule set. But lots of karateka fight, boxers who learn to check kicks, and lots of thai boxers.

The top MMA teams have specialization, a BJJ black belt usually helps traint he submissions, a judo or wrestler helps traint he take downs, a thai boxer or boxer or even a karateka.

Team punishment: Dean Lister is their BJJ man, Saul is their striker, and the wrestler is pretty much TIto Ortiz

But all of them compete in MMA and have others skills along with their base styles.

Hell Nick diaz has a boxing background.

[Mills75]

Just in my view I think all of the organizational politics will die out in the future. Everyone should be proud of their affiliation and the group that they study with. Sometimes I feel the hard feelings are made out to be much stronger than they truly are for whatever reason. I really don't think the younger generation cares in all truth why so and so didn't agree with whomever lol. I feel all those all old disagreements will slowly die and fade away as the people and the figures who started those feelings move onward into the next part of their journey in the next life.

I am sure proud to be Okikukai and I respect the masters and everything about being a part of my group. I study karate though and I'm not a politician nor do I want to be. I feel most groups and practitioners feel as I do about studying karate and not political science. As Breyette Sensei said in another post and topic on here some months ago " when you begin to engage in politics when you really should be engaging in your karate studies that's when you muck things up ". He said something like that and it's not word for word and a direct quote but I think that pretty much says it all.

I'm proud of who I am with as all people should be and they should study and be proud and politics should be left to and handled by politicians as karate should be left to and studied by martial artists.

Just my humble thoughts.

Jeff

[Bill Glasheen]

Adam

IMO you're setting a high bar for karate do, and claiming more of MMA than it actually is.

Apples and oranges.

You talk about other martial influences to MMA. Hell, I've develped genres of karate practitioners based upon their prior backgrounds. My former college wrestlers came out one way. My former dancers another (ballet sure helps those toe kicks...), baseball has its influence, boxing another, gymnastics another, etc., etc.

And the Uechi I've taught has varied based upon the people I expected my students to interact with - either in the sport arena or on the street.

Karate do is a bit of a blank slate. You take it where you want to take it. You breathe life into the style, and not the other way around.

IMO.

- Bill

[nosib]

A technique for removing an eye (in sanchin) that is
not a nukite.....a wauke delivered thumb gouge.....bury
the thumb then pull it back to the classic boshiken
position


There! I feel better now! I hate so called "secret stuff".

I feel much better when someone tells me where I left my
keys than I do when I have to spend 45 minutes looking
for them.

OK OK back to the regular scheduled programing now.

[Bill Glasheen]

(no pun intended... )

Check out Grossman to find out how to develop the cahones actually to pull this one off in a no-holds-barred situation. Not for the feint of heart.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Perhaps you'd like to tell everyone here the specific technique I'm talking about.

what Bill you dont think I get it , or have read/own grossmans book ? pass the grapes Bill ?

for more entertainment how about you tell us the specific technique Adam was talking about , you know the one he obviously doesnt get ?


I could infer you dont understand closest weapon closest target , what with your gouging fetish ....

Could you tell Bill that I do not understand how to pluck an eye out of a skull ?

how many of your fellow men have you blinded ?

Did you take both eyes or just one?

Did you leave them to stumble around in the darkness or did you show mercy and kill them?

come On Bill as much as you will now be pissed of , this is the classic strawman you speak so highly about

not getting it is irrelavent to this thread .

you want Adam to train mith Raffi cause he doesnt get it ?

well that group has a great list of folks they asociate with FMA included , and with all due respect I`d put there skills against anyones

IMO you're setting a high bar for karate do, and claiming more of MMA than it actually is.

back on topic

why shouldnt we set a high bar Bill ? , you obviously do ?

and your correct MMA isnt an impossible Ideal , if you set a high bar for Karate jutsu

that to me is Adams point , holding martial practitioners to high standards of martial application .

You have no idea what you are missing

[Bill Glasheen]

Wow, Marcus. Way to go starting this rant in a thread on respect. Sheesh...

Here's the thing, Marcus. There's this attitude that it's fair to bash karate do or TMA or whatever label du jour someone wants to throw at it. (Jake likes to remind me of the long, long history of Muay Thai - an art many think is contemporary.) Here's an example.

Face it, lots of MMA is more martial then karate.

Yeah they dont do multiple opponent scenario's or eye pokes.


But what karate school does? Most i have seen, and i have see alot, do NOT.

This is the same, tired old "this is better than that" argument. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to challenge this line of thinking - particularly since this Forum is sponsored by a karate organization. The management makes no apologies for the vast majority of people affiliated with this establishment practicing karate do.

MMA is what it is. It's a smashmouth sport where the elite go at it.

Cool!

MMA isn't what it isn't. They don't shoot, they don't fight more than one, they don't worry about fighting and the law, etc., etc. Two men get in a ring with a certain set of rules and have at it. The ref enforces the rules. No more, and no less.

We do like our competition. You're a Kiwi, so you might not relate. (Oops, there I go again...) But right now it's all about March Madness. Is it Hibbert from Georgetown or Odom from Ohio State? Which seven footer is going to make his name? Will the twin uglies from Florida beat the Hollywood flash from UCLA? Etc., etc.

Cool!

Baseball's around the corner. Will the Dice-man make it in the Majors? Will anyone finally realize that the Yankees suk? Can the Cardinals repeat? Etc., etc.

Cool!

Karate do doesn't get the press these days. In general, we don't do our thing on ESPN.

We do however have brothers doing time in Iraq now - as I type. I've trained a few. Is this martial???



The flaw here is in the original thinking. MMA is MMA. It's the flavor du jour. I'm old enough (God am I...) that I've seen many flavors du jour. They wouldn't be "du jours" if there wasn't something to them. But they are just what folks want to see.

For now.

Doesn't make them better. Doesn't make them worse.

Apples and oranges.

But the current state of the art must be improved unfortunatly.

To what? To make it more like MMA? Because someone likes MMA and thinks the rest of the martial world should emulate it?

I think not.

And of course there are all these arguments about "Well we do such-and-such, but I know a lot of schools suk. They all need to..."

To what? Be more like me? Like my school?

Lots to ponder here.

No reason to look for a fight, Marcus. I'm going to be short with you if you try. I have better things to do.

And I won't apologize for calling people who bash martial arts - intentionally or otherwise. Even my fellow moderators, who use it as a debating tool.

I personally don't think Adam is a bad guy. I like him a lot, in fact. I just get on him when he starts on the MMA worship thing. It's what I do! I challenge conventional wisdom.

Just ask all the people who keep telling me "That's not Uechi!!!"

- Bill

[Stryke]

Wow, Marcus. Way to go starting this rant in a thread on respect. Sheesh...

be glad I have enough respect to call it how I see it Bill , smiling and nodding would be the most disrespectfull thing I could do to you

but thanks mate

I have no problem with your position Bill , and big deal quite frankly if your upset because someone disagress with you .

I am not responsible for every Tom, Dick, and Harry martial whatever (mixed or unmixed) who dons a gi, silk shorts, or new wave cammo. We are our own keepers.

this is the point , were responsible , and yes a lot of stuff out there just isnt martial .

and non martial is more prevalent in karate than MMA , big deal , but nothing wrong with talking about that either is there ?

because it`s apples and oranges , and we just dont understand eh .....

as you say it is what it is .

[AAAhmed46]

I never said one was better than the other, just that by saying one art is sport while another isn't exactly true.

Hell some schools have RBSD approches.

Others dont, regardless of style.

Rick is very focussed on street defence. He teaches karate.

But so do many MMA schools as well, they also teach street defence.

It all varies, cant say one does while the other doesn't.

My beef is with touch contact karate schools that claim to be street oriented when they are not.

While some MMA schools may train only to fight in the ring, atleast they hit eachother.

Because there are schools of various styles that dont have a RBSD focus that say they teach techniques for ''the street''



NOT taking a shot at any style per say but ''common practices''.

Why would there be a need to call in Dave Young if street defence was already widely taught?

Alot of us here who post here do street defence in our schools, and i guess that is good.

But we should know what is going on with us, what is the common condition of our style, and what can we do about that?


I mean the kata are full of street defence. Good.

Now lets drill the content inside the kata.

[Stryke]

good post Adam .

And yes Bill , maybe some schools do need to be more like yours if they are to promote themselves as a fighting style of martial arts .

why do you do more baroom brawl scenarios than conventional sparring ?

which one is in the test ?

are sport sparring rules part of the traditional curriculum I honestly dont know if it`s part of the Dan test or not .

yeah martial arts can be many things , and thats fine , and it depends what you want to get out of it .

the only thing I expect is integrity , honesty , these are what create respect .

is it bashing to say karate done strictly for excercise or meditation is less martial than full contact MMA ....

I really dont think so , just a differentiation of different segments , cant be everything to everyone .

[fivedragons]

What is a "technique for the street"?

Adam, I'll make you a promise. If you stop talking about your heroes long enough to get in the ring, I promise I will do the same.

I am 39 years old, I am not and have never been a scrapper, I don't belong to a school, and have been training in nothing but kata, chi kung and other forms of exercise and conditioning for the last several years.

It is high time that I got my ass kicked.

I swear to you that if you get over your fears, and bring yourself to the point that you can test yourself in some kind of non cooperative environment, without fantasizing about what Fedor or Cro cop would do, I will do the same.

I'm serious, dude. I will be humiliated and have it filmed, if you will just step into the ring that you keep talking about.

No more talk about "karate" or "mma", just some good wholesome fun.

If you enter a tournament of any kind, and let me know beforehand, I will see what kind of tounament I can enter in my area.

You can have it filmed, and I will have my tournament filmed.

Then we can both post our fights on you tube or whatever, for all the bloodthirsty uechi-holics to digest.

Seriously, I think it's about time that we both kick some ass, and represent okinawan karate, or whatever they call the stuff they do when they fight in tournaments.

edit: Think about it, I am willing to get beat up, if it will get you off your ass.