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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Yes that was me....I am guilty...

I think the main reason for this is people in general have a hard time and I mean very hard time looking at things from other then a pracitcal application point of view when al things go right.......iinstead of a tactical application point of view to where many things can go wrong....

Will that ever change....MAYBE...guys like Roy, George, Van, MikeK and yourself (and a few others out there I missed) are a very welcomed minority, and in time things do change....you can have the choice to eithe rbe part of the reason for change or you are part of the resistance.

In our field you are either just that...Part of the problem or the solution....some people still think they can play the middle and not pick a side but still offer their opinion, more or less they are part of the problem......

But I am positive about things...I look forward to change and embrace it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:04 pm 
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But I've learned that the way those messages are conveyed determine whether people listen or dig themselves deeper into a hole of ego-driven resistance.

Martial Art egos are monumental... especially among seniors. Telling them they "gotta" do something because what they are doing now is stupid will get you "NOWHERE"!

Dave, Roy, Darin and Rory (and others who work in a violent world the rest of us only read about) represent the areas of expertise involving the real world that few martial artist understand. But Dave and his colleagues understand the "hard-head" mentality of "M.A. jocks" who think what they do prepare them for what they will face in jobs our guys perform every day.

In a training environment, these ego-driven misconceptions are quickly corrected. No long-winded article necessary. No references or expert studies needed. The trick is to get the egos listening instead of reacting and defending themselves to what they perceive as an attack on their skills and physical abilities.

When dealing with people who believe they will never need to protect themselves or don't wish to be bothered thinking about it, we must be patient and understanding.

We are making progress and people are listening. But you won't make any progress by making fun of the non-believers while addressing the choir. Such strategy might make enjoyable reading for those who believe they are part of the "in" crowd, but is an absolute turn-off for the vast majority of readers who think you are talking about "them"!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:50 am 
Agree with your post 100 % Dave

I guess why it struck home is because I immediately got the inference IMHO

people and egos are complicated :lol:



Quote:
In our field you are either just that...Part of the problem or the solution....some people still think they can play the middle and not pick a side but still offer their opinion, more or less they are part of the problem......


this is probably folks like myself or Van , get a little flak , in my experience you either hold true to your ethics and morals , or you compromise and become an enabler .

depending on your Point of veiw enabling others can mean many things I guess .

George I understand your point of veiw and can respect it , but I draw the line at having to disagree with what i know is right , for the benifit of the political game .


I will probably always be looked down on it by the conformist masses for it , but hey some may learn from it (at my personal expense ) , and you at least need a bad guy so folks can play the men in white hats .

and youll get lots of hits ( I dont think i`m scary , but thanks for the compliment if you think I`m that good ;) )


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Now that people have had a chance to not answer Dave's question let's get back to the topic.

On the surface what Dave asked is a very precise question that makes everyone uncomfortable. It challenges our views of ourselves, which is always interesting to say the least.

After thinking about the topic here are my thoughts. Dave, I'm using these definitions for my interpretation of your equation, so I hope you don't think I'm trying to put words in your mouth. Please correct any wrong assumptions I've made. 8)

If we look at Websters, Dave's equation of Experience + Training = Skill Level looks to be accurate. Now Dave is using the modifier "Real World" to the first part of the equation which narrows the results.

Train: to undergo instruction, discipline, or drill

+

Experience: direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b : the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

=

Skill: the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance

keywords

Effective: producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect

Ready: prepared for immediate use

So the way I read it is skill level is the actual application of ones training in the real world. To me that's pretty obvious.

Now that I've defined how I read Dave's question here are my thoughts.

I train under someone who has a lot of real world experience. I might learn what he knows, maybe I can execute what he knows but I still don't have anywhere near the experience that he has, and hopefully I never will. At best I am potentially as skilled as he is but until I find out in the real world it's a skill level that I can't claim. So a low real world skill level is not big deal; it doesn't mean I'm not good at what I do, or not dedicated, it just means my RW skill level isn't realized. It is what it is.
I seek out people with more first hand experience (higher skill level) than me so I can get a clue to what works. I can still learn from someone without experience, but it'll be lacking that little extra something. So I find myself, without Dave's definition, looking for what he would rate people with high skill levels. These are few and far between.

I my opinion we have to be careful and not read that a lack of experience labels a person ineffective, but that effectiveness may not have been actualized at that point.


At least that's how I see it.

Marcus, I think your example of the ramset gun was a good method of getting someone experienced. The other method of going solo leaves less wiggle room for failure.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:52 pm 
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The word real at times can scare, intimidate and put off some people who feel that training out of the real world application has given them a skill level they can be comfortable with.

I see this far too many time in my field. Especially when I go to a place where they have been training for many years on a subject to only find out in a few short days that they may have been off their mark some.

A mentor of mine once said," Even though you wear a watch, still doesn't mean you know what time it is, even though you're wearing it."

There are many great fighters in this world, experienced teachers, and people who just love the arts, it is putting it all together that truly allows one to become whole and complete.

This is what we feel should always be the goal of a warrior.....if not then everyone else is just doing it for fun....(WHICH IS GREAT TOO!)...

However, if your doing it for fun, then you are right. It doesn't matter who you breath, how you punch or block or even how you use your feet.

As long as if your having FUN doing it!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:28 pm 
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Thanks Dave.
I'm a civilian so I fall somewhat into the fun category. And while I'm interested in the martial arts I would never mistake myself for a warrior. A matter of fact if I noticed my real world experience going up I'd take it as a warning flag that something about my life style is wrong or I'm making some bad choices. So I can say that I'd be happy with a somewhat low skill level. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:07 am 
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Good post George, and one worthy of more discussion.

Quote:
But I've learned that the way those messages are conveyed determine whether people listen or dig themselves deeper into a hole of ego-driven resistance.


Very true. What is also very true is that the ego driven resistance and ‘holing up’ instead of rebutting, speaks volumes about their weaknesses.
They could respond with ‘well, that doesn’t apply to me/us because…..’
Or ‘I think you are wrong because….’

Going into a deep hole tells the story of ‘insecurity’ and inability to react.

Quote:
Martial Art egos are monumental... especially among seniors. Telling them they "gotta" do something because what they are doing now is stupid will get you "NOWHERE"!


In the end nobody has ever said they are stupid_ the professionals on violence that write here say they may be uninformed about the real world, not stupid.

Quote:
Dave and his colleagues understand the "hard-head" mentality of "M.A. jocks" who think what they do prepare them for what they will face in jobs our guys perform every day.


Yes and no. Dave has stated many times that what he writes applies to civilian life, every day life challenges and not necessarily to military/police etc.

And when we write that ‘Mushin’ from dojo practice will emerge and ‘take care of business’ we compound the problem of ‘hard headedness’_ What teacher and dojo are really qualified to teach survival in the physical, emotional, legal, and financial sense? This is the purview of violence professionals.



Quote:
In a training environment, these ego-driven misconceptions are quickly corrected. No long-winded article necessary. No references or expert studies needed.


True enough. But what training environment? I take it you mean ‘specialized cross training’ _ but even this suggestion implies to them that their TMA is lacking somehow and their knickers go on a twist. The reference to expert studies is then necessary to make them aware of critical knowledge worthy of exploration.
Quote:
The trick is to get the egos listening instead of reacting and defending themselves to what they perceive as an attack on their skills and physical abilities.


The people who feel ‘dissed’ and attacked_ show us how weak they are. If they were secure and strong, then they would respond and argue the whys and why nots instead of dwelling in cocoons. After all the forums are here for discussions and even arguments_ no big deal_ show us what you got to say and why_ so we can all learn to look at things from different viewpoints.

Quote:
When dealing with people who believe they will never need to protect themselves or don't wish to be bothered thinking about it, we must be patient and understanding.


That is their choice, and I for one have no interest in changing their views and needs. To each his own. They are free to ignore the realities forums, the concepts by experts etc. _it is like going to a book store, setting aside books about Mack Bolan, and buying the ones about flower arrangements. Their prerogative.


Quote:
We are making progress and people are listening. But you won't make any progress by making fun of the non-believers while addressing the choir. Such strategy might make enjoyable reading for those who believe they are part of the "in" crowd, but is an absolute turn-off for the vast majority of readers who think you are talking about "them"!


Again, I have no interest in reaching pacifists and non-believers, when they complain to you, tell them to stay on their side of the river.

The ones who think we are talking about ‘them’ have a paranoia syndrome, and they show their weaknesses by not making their opinions known and invite discussions on their views. They fear ‘engagement’ _
____

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:06 am 
Good posts and good thread

we will never have the whole package , and even the experienced have holes , bad days etc .

I think Mike had a pretty good summary .

there are basic focuses though IMHO that can help , simple thing sby always trying to hit harder and not just prettier , training tacticaly rather than purely technically was a great observation from Dave IMHO

as must simulation as we can , education , critical mind . Get out of the comfort zone and explore .

thiese kind of questions never end up with prety answers , but it`s all about having the right question IMHO


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:27 am 
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Correct Marcus.

George wrote
Quote:
Martial Art egos are monumental... especially among seniors. Telling them they "gotta" do something because what they are doing now is stupid will get you "NOWHERE"!


The 'tactical' aspect of fighting in this day and age is what escapes most people for no fault of their own. It is just that they have never really given this a deep thought.

And 'tactical' defines many aspects of violent engagements_and karate is a form of violence whether they like it or not.

They 'gotta do nothing' if they don't wanna do it.

But they have no right to tell any of us not to write about how we feel about such things or to bring up professional views on reality forums that do affect the TMA applications in the real world as Dave, for example, sets forth.

Imagine this in a Dan ranked student_ [Is Dave, Van, etal_ talking about me?]

How insecure.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:54 am 
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For example Dave wrote
Quote:
A skill level for survival which is what we are talking about not the sport, recreational, or feel good martial artist...just the real life warrior which is the real world we live in-

No disrespect to anyone who practices martial arts for any of those reasons and the many more who just love the arts...

The category I am addressing is the one for personal survival inside and our of the courtroom.


I am sure this is one of the ‘ways it is said’ that pisses off the traditional practitioners.

And why is it so?

Let the average Uechi practitioner come on line and tell us what he has learned about ‘the personal survival inside and out of the courtroom’ that Dave mentions_ and from whom? :?: :?:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:05 am 
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http://www.wilsonkarate.com/forum/viewt ... hp?tid=251

Here is a link to Rick's forum that touches upon this madness.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:21 am 
good stuff Van , and good post By Rick

theres always a little contention on who`s got it right , who`s the best , whats real etc .

the best I`ve met , always have accepted there is no magic bullet , no superior skills , and have all behind all there ability admitted there own shortcomings and explored .

no one who reads this couldnt be undone by some untrained punk if luck goes the wrong way .

so theres never any ego in looking to improve or vary or explore our weaknesses .

really the martial arts is Exploring violence, might not be pretty but thats it .

the only way for any of us to leanr is explore , and learn from others , I just wish more of the others would get into the why ..... as In Ricks post


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 Post subject: Van..........
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:47 am 
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Before I met you I read your forum and your posts, and now that that I have met you nothing is different. You are a professional who lives in the world of when then rather then if then.

Here is someting to think about that I learned from a mentor of mine named "Coach Bob Lindsey". If then/when then thinking. I have expanded on this some but the message is the still the same.

Most people in my travels who live in the "IF" then world think they will have time to "DO THIS TECHIQUE RIGHT, correct their own weakness, win that one time encounter, or survive that attack, "IF" the time comes and unfortunately more live in a place where this is not a matter of "IF" but "WHEN" this will happen to us, or around us, or to someone we know and love.

To compound this even further these people have never truly tested the skills they have, either through poor training conditions (HARD TO LEARN FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN WHERE YOU MAY HAVE TO BE). However, the training drills or tactics have not been field proven, only placed in a book or power point and talked about. This adds to this equation.

You know some people even have a hard time tihnking or understanding that maybe, just maybe they are not training in the way that benifits them the most...(Most people only hear the word wrong).

WRONG is not a word people like to hear especially since they have been doing something a specific way for MANY YEARS!...but you know as well as I do that doing something for a long time only says you have been doing something for a long time!

However they choose to word it, it is WRONG, I have found that they have not progressed through the years, just maintained the same things through the years. This happens MANY times in training especially in the martial arts, military and our field.

We have change greatly in the way we prepare our troops in hand to hand before/during and now shortly after the war started in Iraq, and we are changing some again now.

VAN - Do you think the way UECHI-Ryu is NOW...Is the same as it was when it first started?...I would think not... even that has changed SOMEWHAT - either through being watered down from being passed from instructor to instructor, or changed through the understanding and or misinturpetations throughout the years, something.

We have more violence in our streets now, then 30 years ago, more repeat offenders, more people living in the US then 30 years ago and it is growing.

The few people like us who live in the in the "WHEN" then world at least understand; this is more of a reality, either through our own personal exeperiences, from what we have seen happen in other places, from being a witness to this around us or from other professionals who have been there.

"WHEN" the attack comes, "WHEN" we need to survive the violence, "WHEN" this happens to us we will do this....So THIS takes on more of a reality then the "IF", because we know that this is a reality.

I hope you continue to write in my forum I am honnored to even be in the same forum as a professional as yourself and some of the others I have met on here.

What has worked for me in my life and career is; I try to never change a person's thinking; just speak the truth and evidentually the truth will prevail, maybe not in our life time but it will prevail.

Then when it is all over said and done this is what we will be known for - You remember the old police TV series...DANO, just the facts, DANO just the facts.....

PROFESSIONAL FACT ALWAYS overrides personal opinion in any world we live in!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:20 pm 
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Quote:
What has worked for me in my life and career is; I try to never change a person's thinking; just speak the truth and evidentially the truth will prevail, maybe not in our life time but it will prevail.


Dave, A good way of looking at it. A favorite blogger of mine is Rob Redmond over on 24FightingChickens.com, he's considered a bit of a Shotokan karate iconoclast which makes his blog a must read for me. He noticed that when he writes something based on fact or even just his well thought out opinion that he starts getting emails where people seem to be going through the 7 stages of grieving; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. People can and do have a right to deny the facts, and be angry & get depressed about them. The only thing a person can't really do is bargain with the facts.
My view is to present my opinion or what I know is true, respect that people can totally disagree with me and not get angry at them for doing so, and not get into any stupid flame wars which accomplish nothing but to drive them further away from taking another look at what's being presented. Even if they aren't rebutting or giving their views as long as they're reading means they're thinking about what's presented. If someone is firing off emails to GEM, it's a hassle for GEM, but at least that person is still engaged in his own way and working this stuff out on their own. And to me that's what's important.

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 Post subject: Your so right!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:09 pm 
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Quote: MikeK
[i]Even if they aren't rebutting or giving their views as long as they're reading means they're thinking about what's presented. If someone is firing off emails to GEM, it's a hassle for GEM, but at least that person is still engaged in his own way and working this stuff out on their own. And to me that's what's important.[/---------------------------

MikeK;

If only more thought like that. Most people find it easier to DISGARD fact rather than REGARD it!

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