You know though, im tired of people saying ROyce would win today in the UFC if he fought under old UFC rules.
Yeah the UFC had less rules in those days.
But Royce rarely really used them at all.
Why no John McCain
Moderator: Available
"One maneuver is still king with crowds. Known as a "submission..." "
Just found that entertaining, you know, that one submission thing we do. Almost as good as Bush's comment in the McCain/religious right article that he's a uniter not a divider.
I don't see why people have to claim Royce would be winning if the rules were different... didn't he do enough? He (well, his family, who selected him to carry the torch) changed martial arts and dominated the sport, and now that he's past his prime and would be squaring off against dozens of competitors who are armed with grappling skills (plus striking skills and better fitness), why would he dominate? I mean, Matt Hughes ate him for breakfast, and it was really no surprise. If I were a Graciholic I'd just posit that Rickson was the man, anyway...
What's surprising to me is the still-widespread lack of JJ knowledge. I've been doing JJ a whole two months and any UFC hour on Spike will include some jawdropping errors by someone, including missed opportunites for locks, poor defenses (and offense) from the guard, inability to hold dominant positions (giving up the guard, the mount, the back, etc), or letting someone escape from a dominant position for no reason. It's odd--but you sure don't see it from the upper echelon people anymore.
Just found that entertaining, you know, that one submission thing we do. Almost as good as Bush's comment in the McCain/religious right article that he's a uniter not a divider.
I don't see why people have to claim Royce would be winning if the rules were different... didn't he do enough? He (well, his family, who selected him to carry the torch) changed martial arts and dominated the sport, and now that he's past his prime and would be squaring off against dozens of competitors who are armed with grappling skills (plus striking skills and better fitness), why would he dominate? I mean, Matt Hughes ate him for breakfast, and it was really no surprise. If I were a Graciholic I'd just posit that Rickson was the man, anyway...
What's surprising to me is the still-widespread lack of JJ knowledge. I've been doing JJ a whole two months and any UFC hour on Spike will include some jawdropping errors by someone, including missed opportunites for locks, poor defenses (and offense) from the guard, inability to hold dominant positions (giving up the guard, the mount, the back, etc), or letting someone escape from a dominant position for no reason. It's odd--but you sure don't see it from the upper echelon people anymore.
--Ian
IJ wrote:"One maneuver is still king with crowds. Known as a "submission..." "
Just found that entertaining, you know, that one submission thing we do. Almost as good as Bush's comment in the McCain/religious right article that he's a uniter not a divider.
I don't see why people have to claim Royce would be winning if the rules were different... didn't he do enough? He (well, his family, who selected him to carry the torch) changed martial arts and dominated the sport, and now that he's past his prime and would be squaring off against dozens of competitors who are armed with grappling skills (plus striking skills and better fitness), why would he dominate? I mean, Matt Hughes ate him for breakfast, and it was really no surprise. If I were a Graciholic I'd just posit that Rickson was the man, anyway...
What's surprising to me is the still-widespread lack of JJ knowledge. I've been doing JJ a whole two months and any UFC hour on Spike will include some jawdropping errors by someone, including missed opportunites for locks, poor defenses (and offense) from the guard, inability to hold dominant positions (giving up the guard, the mount, the back, etc), or letting someone escape from a dominant position for no reason. It's odd--but you sure don't see it from the upper echelon people anymore.
From what i hear from MMA peeps, submissions wrestling is very different from MMA grappling.
THe strikes, and the lack of a gi changes the dynamics greatly apparently.
Even Carlson(i had a quote once) commented on how alot of Jututsu is changing to be more 'sport oriented' and is moving away from it's Vale Tudo/street fighting roots. His arguement was how some sweeps leave one open to getting punched in the face, while BJJ made for Vale Tudo doesn't leave room for that, and that BJJ was executed differently. Apparently HElio was teh same way , but more lenient then carlson in that aspect. Both were monsters.
Calrsons students and sons apparently wasted Helios brood in an inner family thingy.
But Rorians crew just a much much better marketer, and is apparently alot less short tempered. Sometimes Carlsons crowd comes off as very arrogant in interviews, while Helio's sons are bit more charismatic.
"From what i hear from MMA peeps, submissions wrestling is very different from MMA grappling. THe strikes, and the lack of a gi changes the dynamics greatly apparently."
Certainly... tons of things we do require a gi, and a lot of things we do benefit from a gi. And others wouldn't work in the slightest if striking occured. That aside, BJJ is easily adaptable to the MMA world (there's no gi topics in the Cesar Gracie JJ DVDs I got, and in class, and no gi classes, etc). There are some people who evidently haven't been to a JJ class... for example...
I saw Stephen Bonnar (I think it was him, but he ought to know better) leave a half mile of space on a jiujitsu artist he had in side control--and surprise, the guy did his JJ 101 and a half second later was in full guard again.
I saw someone in the last few days of spike trying to push the hooks off when someone had his back. This leaves your neck unprotected, and seconds later he was tapping from a rear naked choke. Should be guarding the neck and trying to bridge sideways against the locked feet of the opposite side of the attempting-to-choke arm, and immediately blocking the attempts to mount that follow the escape).
Melvin Guillard has explosive power and super athleticism... in a fight he eventually won by a solar plexus KO against a JJ guy, at the end of round one was saved by the bell after letting himself get taken down (happens), letting the guy proceed unchecked to side control (less of an excuse) and letting him immediately mount him (gotta block with that side's knee and work to replace guard!) and take his back (bridge the guy off--happened to Bonnar several times in a fight with Sam Hogar I think--instead of rolling to offer him a position from which you have no attacks at all).
And there was that poor muy thai fighter that Josh Koscheck took down, passed guard on, mounted, and took the back for a choke before he threw a bunch...
It's like racecar driving in gears 1-4...
Certainly... tons of things we do require a gi, and a lot of things we do benefit from a gi. And others wouldn't work in the slightest if striking occured. That aside, BJJ is easily adaptable to the MMA world (there's no gi topics in the Cesar Gracie JJ DVDs I got, and in class, and no gi classes, etc). There are some people who evidently haven't been to a JJ class... for example...
I saw Stephen Bonnar (I think it was him, but he ought to know better) leave a half mile of space on a jiujitsu artist he had in side control--and surprise, the guy did his JJ 101 and a half second later was in full guard again.
I saw someone in the last few days of spike trying to push the hooks off when someone had his back. This leaves your neck unprotected, and seconds later he was tapping from a rear naked choke. Should be guarding the neck and trying to bridge sideways against the locked feet of the opposite side of the attempting-to-choke arm, and immediately blocking the attempts to mount that follow the escape).
Melvin Guillard has explosive power and super athleticism... in a fight he eventually won by a solar plexus KO against a JJ guy, at the end of round one was saved by the bell after letting himself get taken down (happens), letting the guy proceed unchecked to side control (less of an excuse) and letting him immediately mount him (gotta block with that side's knee and work to replace guard!) and take his back (bridge the guy off--happened to Bonnar several times in a fight with Sam Hogar I think--instead of rolling to offer him a position from which you have no attacks at all).
And there was that poor muy thai fighter that Josh Koscheck took down, passed guard on, mounted, and took the back for a choke before he threw a bunch...
It's like racecar driving in gears 1-4...
--Ian
Im not saying BJJ skills are useless in MMA. I would never say something so stupid. But Certain techniques have to be executed differently.IJ wrote:"From what i hear from MMA peeps, submissions wrestling is very different from MMA grappling. THe strikes, and the lack of a gi changes the dynamics greatly apparently."
Certainly... tons of things we do require a gi, and a lot of things we do benefit from a gi. And others wouldn't work in the slightest if striking occured. That aside, BJJ is easily adaptable to the MMA world (there's no gi topics in the Cesar Gracie JJ DVDs I got, and in class, and no gi classes, etc). There are some people who evidently haven't been to a JJ class... for example...
I saw Stephen Bonnar (I think it was him, but he ought to know better) leave a half mile of space on a jiujitsu artist he had in side control--and surprise, the guy did his JJ 101 and a half second later was in full guard again.
I saw someone in the last few days of spike trying to push the hooks off when someone had his back. This leaves your neck unprotected, and seconds later he was tapping from a rear naked choke. Should be guarding the neck and trying to bridge sideways against the locked feet of the opposite side of the attempting-to-choke arm, and immediately blocking the attempts to mount that follow the escape).
Melvin Guillard has explosive power and super athleticism... in a fight he eventually won by a solar plexus KO against a JJ guy, at the end of round one was saved by the bell after letting himself get taken down (happens), letting the guy proceed unchecked to side control (less of an excuse) and letting him immediately mount him (gotta block with that side's knee and work to replace guard!) and take his back (bridge the guy off--happened to Bonnar several times in a fight with Sam Hogar I think--instead of rolling to offer him a position from which you have no attacks at all).
And there was that poor muy thai fighter that Josh Koscheck took down, passed guard on, mounted, and took the back for a choke before he threw a bunch...
It's like racecar driving in gears 1-4...
Nog brothers: Great damn jujutsu. Same with Dean Lister.
Here is an example where you CANT be locked into a pure grappling mindset.
Hell look at one fight Arlovski has (maybe Rick will remember when this was and what UFC)
The guy he was going up against was a BJJ dude, he finally got Arlovski down, and was prepared to do a heel hook.
He had Arlovski in a great heel hook position, but when he reached down for the submission....BANG! K.O. I forgot which one that was.
But there is no way im saying BJJ is useless in MMA, it's used all the time.
Good time to point out the amazing accomplishment of roughly 57-time various belt holder Randy Couture here... not only did he take Silvia out, it wasn't a 1 minute affair like the Silvia-Arlovski fights. He fought 5 rounds when you see much younger athletes gas after 2. Curious to see how he will fair against a better grappler like Gonzaga, who is coming off that stunning Cro-Cop near decapitation.
--Ian
