A spirited discussion
It's a waste of time because the applications exists outside of kata and are readily available to learn if someone wants them. It's a waste of time to think you will discover real world applications, strategies and principles dancing around your bedroom.
Hmmm, perhaps dancing around in your bedroom is how you view kata. If this is the extent of your knowledge in this particular area then I can understand why you feel the way you do. Unfortunately, this is a modernistic view of kata and one that is self-limiting.
It is never a waste of time to have an understanding of a training devise that teaches not only applications, but as I mentioned, strategies and more importantly, principles. Kata were...and are a means of transmission of these necessary tools to those that have yet to learn them. Do other means of transmission exist? Yes, but I don't feel any of them are superior to kata.
One can form an entire foundation of practical applications, tactics, strategies and principles on just a single kata. Perhaps two or three. One can them hone the skills that are best suited to their particular talents from the various bunkai from said kata.
a person can study the "children's kata" or highly advanced kata and they'll be just as clueless to possible working applications if they don't already know how to make the technique work. You get from kata what you bring to it.
Or...one can learn from a kata working applications. That is their purpose, to be a teaching tool to transmit such knowledge to the next generation of student. One need not be an expert to learn proper applications, tactics, strategies and principles from a kata...provided they have a teacher that knows them and can properly teach them. The kata can be practiced alone when someone else isn't available. Hence solidifying skills by rote and being a benefit as far as the O.O.D.A loop is concerned. That in and of itself is invaluable.
Kata is not the same as actually doing something. Hell, even scenario training isn't actually doing the real thing but it's closer than a kata will ever be.
This doesn't make sense. You can easily take an application, tactic, strategy or principle from a bunkai and turn it into a scenario based training aid. That is what a bunkai is after all, unless someone is training it incorrectly.
What fact? That many of those teaching bunkai are clueless to what makes a working application, and the guys who do know didn't learn those applications doing kata in their bedrooms waiting for enlightenment?
Umm...ok. Your probably right. I would imagine they learned those applications studying kata and then breaking it down into its bunkai and using it as intended against a resisting opponent. And since the bunkai in most kata are the best applications, tactics, strategies and principles that were learned against violent, resisting attackers that were/are available...kata can be and are a wealth of information.
Who cares what Itosu did
I find that knowledge of history has sharpened my martial skills tremendously.
You won't ever discover anything in a kata that you don't learn outside of the kata.
This is a blanket statement that has no basis in reality. You cannot possibly speak for others. And to say that you cannot discover anything implies that you are the bastion of martial knowledge and can't be taught anything. I've never met anyone like that...ever. I've been in the arts for 32 years and feel I can learn many things from various avenues. Be it a kata, an seminar, research or a conversation with a novice.
You won't learn how to do a proper joint lock from a kata, you won't learn how to target a strike from a kata, you won't learn how to move around someone from a kata, you won't learn how to read an opponent from a kata, you won't learn how to improvise something after you sure fire technique goes to hell.
Actually you will learn all of this and more from proper kata training. Providing you've had proper instruction. Everything you've mentions above, plus much more you didn't mention is the sole purpose for kata and the very reason for its existence.
Actually I could care less if it's a flame or not
Why not? I would think it important to know whether someone is just trying to stir the pot or if they are sincerely interested in a honest, in-depth conversation with another martial artist.
Also careful using the "real martial arts" argument around here. There are a few people that check in from time to time that really do know the difference.
Excellent...and now there is one more. I'm all for being humble but I'll be happy to place my credentials against anyone. I don't mean that as chest thumping or back patting. Rather, I know where I've come from, what I know, who I've learned from and who and how many I've taught. I know what I've done with what I've learned and what those I've taught have be able to do.
And it sure as hell wasn't winning a trinket.