Moderator: Dave Young
So actually working a techniques against a resisting opponent is on the same level as doing a kata?
Could you please give an example? I'm only familiar with most of the kata of Shotokan, ITF TKD, Uechi-ryu, Isshinryu so if you could pick from one of those I'd appreciate it.
Forgive then David, I didn't know. Care to share your background?
But I for one dont put much credence into time or rank , they arent always an indicator
Taekido wrote:Lets take a look at the first movement in Pinan Shodan as an example;
Commonly taught as some type of left handed palm heel block/trap with the right arm to 'break' the attackers arm at the elbow. Several problems with this, first the high right hand is not really doing anything practical in the beginning. And to think one is going to 'break' anything with such a trap against a live, hostile, resisting opponent is not realistic. It teaches a bad technique based on a faulty principle.
So, lets take a look at it as a shoulder lock as described in one of my above posts, perhaps the first. As we see a hook punch coming at our head we instinctively raise our right arm to cover (assuming a left hook for the sake of this example). This is a simple, gross motor cover similar to a reverse 'elbow spike'. Doesn't take a lot of training as it is a natural motion. The left arm then comes up behind the attacker's left tricep. The next movement in the kata is the right arm going down and the left up and close. This is a simple shoulder lock, very common in Chin Na, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu systems.
Taekido wrote:Forgive me for not being more clear, it was late when I typed my previous reply. Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible. The principle demonstrated in the kata is of a shoulder lock. There are multiple ways to reach this conclusion, it would be impractical and impossibly long to include them all in a single kata. But the principle is sound for a shoulder lock.
For example, one can acheive this lock from a grapple/clinch rather than a punch. One could grab the attacker as an action rather than in response to an action. The raised hand could be a different type of cover as well. But the principle of the shoulder lock is sound regardless of how it was reached as a conclusion. The kata isn't demonstrating just a technique, it is demonstrating a principle of locking. The kata doesn't show a ground application, but the principle it shows can be applied on the ground.
Taekido wrote:The left arm then comes up behind the attacker's left tricep. The next movement in the kata is the right arm going down and the left up and close. This is a simple shoulder lock, very common in Chin Na, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu systems.
This is incorrect. The Pinan katas are a very advanced series of kata. They were later 're-labeled by Professor Itosu for inclusion into elementary schools in Okinawa. This re-labeled version is the basis for most of the worlds karate today.
Now if someone can point me to a document written by Itosu where he states otherwise then I'll change my opinion.
Wow, if you think the pinan are very advanced you must really be in awe of enpi or kusanku.
Taekido wrote:All I can say partner is you'll never see what you won't look at. The Pinan katas have joint locks, ground fighting, throws, escapes, grappling, cavity presses, nerve strikes etc. Pretty much all you'd need for self-defense.
I've provided material and a link to research should you choose to do so.
Hey Mike , if they have no application then what makes one more or less complicated than another ?
after all its just waving your arms and legs around right ?
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