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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:17 am 
Hey I hope you aint got anything against trinkets :D :lol:

you`ll find a lot of long term folks on board here , who`ve seen most things come go and come back around again .

But I for one dont put much credence into time or rank , they arent always an indicator , however people have to earn trinkets :lol: :lol: 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:01 am 
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So actually working a techniques against a resisting opponent is on the same level as doing a kata?


Apples and oranges. Both can be/are training tools. Kata/bunkai represents a collection of techniques, applications, strategies, tactics and principles that can be extrapolated from the kata and then used against a resisting opponents.


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Could you please give an example? I'm only familiar with most of the kata of Shotokan, ITF TKD, Uechi-ryu, Isshinryu so if you could pick from one of those I'd appreciate it.


Absolutely, this would be a great direction for the thread to take. I enjoy the Pinan katas. Lets take a look at the first movement in Pinan Shodan as an example;

Commonly taught as some type of left handed palm heel block/trap with the right arm to 'break' the attackers arm at the elbow. Several problems with this, first the high right hand is not really doing anything practical in the beginning. And to think one is going to 'break' anything with such a trap against a live, hostile, resisting opponent is not realistic. It teaches a bad technique based on a faulty principle.

So, lets take a look at it as a shoulder lock as described in one of my above posts, perhaps the first. As we see a hook punch coming at our head we instinctively raise our right arm to cover (assuming a left hook for the sake of this example). This is a simple, gross motor cover similar to a reverse 'elbow spike'. Doesn't take a lot of training as it is a natural motion. The left arm then comes up behind the attacker's left tricep. The next movement in the kata is the right arm going down and the left up and close. This is a simple shoulder lock, very common in Chin Na, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu systems.

It teaches various things; locking a joint, in this case the elbow and shoulder are affected down to the waist. It demonstrates off-balancing an opponent. It demonstrates gross motor responses which is critical due to adrenaline dump under duress which is connected to blood pressure spikes and pulse rate. It demonstrates the ability to flow into a take down from the initial response. It also demonstrates a principle that is equally applicable in situations other than the one described above. For example, the shoulder only works the way a shoulder works. The principle demonstrated could be applied standing or while on the ground. It can be applied even using the legs while on the ground.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm unable to convey by the written word the totality and dynamics of this movement. It is difficult to describe moving, flowing events in a step by step basis. Hopefully I've described it sufficiently to at least convey the feel, so-to-speak.

At any rate, we can break this down into any number of scenarios. For example, your at the gas pumps and the guy you cut off gets out of his car and takes a swing at you.

Your stopped on the street by someone feigning the need for directions and then launches a mugging attempt.

You've gone to the ground and the perp is reaching for a weapon and it becomes necessary to temporarily lock him up in a situation where a strike is unavailable or undesirable.

There are any number of scenarios that can be created from just this first bunkai. Pinan Shodan demonstrates a lot of balance displacement tactics that are useful from multiple angles and positions.

Remember a kata was not designed for a practitioner to perform in exacting standards like say...a belt test or competition. Rather it was a catalog of movements that demonstrate practical things for multiple situations. That is why one could be well versed in self defense with the knowledge contained in just a few kata, perhaps even just one. This was a view of Kanbun was it not?

Quote:
Forgive then David, I didn't know. Care to share your background?


I've been very blessed to have received training in multiple systems over the years. From some very good instructors who weren't interested in fluff. Most of which were in my career field or something similar. For me, military, E.P. agent and Deputy.

Quote:
But I for one dont put much credence into time or rank , they arent always an indicator


Absolutely correct! My personal feelings are what a man/woman can do or what their level of experience is when it comes to real life. For example, many instructors have never had to use their skills against a real attacker. This doesn't mean they are bad instructors, nor does it mean that what they teach is wrong. But they teach from theory and not experience. There is a difference.

I have 'rank' and often try to down play it. I use it on my site as a means of establishing credibility. But that is only because it is the only language many prospective student know. Once they train with me I fully explain where belt rank came from and why it came to be and how little it has to do with real martial arts. I never wear my belt in real training and the only time I do wear it is for a photo opportunity for my site. Again, it is what is looked for from those new to the arts.

Right now, only one of my students knows how many BB's I've earned and what level they are. I prefer it that way. More important to me by far are my instructor certifications from the State or 'higher authorities'. Those are the ones that have opened the most doors and have allowed my to attain the level I now have within certain circles.

Again, I'm enjoying this thread. Thank you to everyone for participating. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:12 am 
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Taekido wrote:
Lets take a look at the first movement in Pinan Shodan as an example;

Commonly taught as some type of left handed palm heel block/trap with the right arm to 'break' the attackers arm at the elbow. Several problems with this, first the high right hand is not really doing anything practical in the beginning. And to think one is going to 'break' anything with such a trap against a live, hostile, resisting opponent is not realistic. It teaches a bad technique based on a faulty principle.

So, lets take a look at it as a shoulder lock as described in one of my above posts, perhaps the first. As we see a hook punch coming at our head we instinctively raise our right arm to cover (assuming a left hook for the sake of this example). This is a simple, gross motor cover similar to a reverse 'elbow spike'. Doesn't take a lot of training as it is a natural motion. The left arm then comes up behind the attacker's left tricep. The next movement in the kata is the right arm going down and the left up and close. This is a simple shoulder lock, very common in Chin Na, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu systems.


Opening of Pinan Shodan

Unless I'm missing something it seems like an inefficient way to cover against a hook as the hands are traveling from the waist to the forehead area. It also leaves a lot of face open and your arm in an inconvenient position with your ribs open. There also seems to be several steps missing in the kata that would make the lock work.

Just wondering, what makes you think the attack is a hook?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:35 am 
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Forgive me for not being more clear, it was late when I typed my previous reply. Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible. The principle demonstrated in the kata is of a shoulder lock. There are multiple ways to reach this conclusion, it would be impractical and impossibly long to include them all in a single kata. But the principle is sound for a shoulder lock.

For example, one can acheive this lock from a grapple/clinch rather than a punch. One could grab the attacker as an action rather than in response to an action. The raised hand could be a different type of cover as well. But the principle of the shoulder lock is sound regardless of how it was reached as a conclusion. The kata isn't demonstrating just a technique, it is demonstrating a principle of locking. The kata doesn't show a ground application, but the principle it shows can be applied on the ground.

Hopefully I'm explaining myself a little clearer. Thank you for pointing out the need for a clarification. Sometimes when its late and you get on a roll you think faster than you type.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:06 am 
whats inefficeint about a muay thai style guard ?

both arms up and fists to temples , no snatch it sideways turn towards attack from the side and catch it , and youll the catching arm drops/moves out a little like the kata because your reaching and flinching .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Taekido wrote:
Forgive me for not being more clear, it was late when I typed my previous reply. Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible. The principle demonstrated in the kata is of a shoulder lock. There are multiple ways to reach this conclusion, it would be impractical and impossibly long to include them all in a single kata. But the principle is sound for a shoulder lock.

For example, one can acheive this lock from a grapple/clinch rather than a punch. One could grab the attacker as an action rather than in response to an action. The raised hand could be a different type of cover as well. But the principle of the shoulder lock is sound regardless of how it was reached as a conclusion. The kata isn't demonstrating just a technique, it is demonstrating a principle of locking. The kata doesn't show a ground application, but the principle it shows can be applied on the ground.


Here's where and why I feel the kata/bunkai/oyo method breaks down so often; it's forcing an application into a sequence. Even if the main point of the section is to show a shoulder lock why show a inefficient and weak cover( if that's what if really is) against the initial attack, why not show a workable entry? Why even show an initial attack if the sequence is about the joint lock?

Another problem, assuming that something is more than it really is. Remember, the pinans were kata developed for middle school kids to do in gym class. It's beginner stuff, not some super secret advanced method of teaching applications and principles. Now if someone can point me to a document written by Itosu where he states otherwise then I'll change my opinion.

Also, in my opinion, while any move in any kata is open to interpretation there are not an infinite number of techniques to any given performance. For any sequence there is one or two good moves, maybe a third interpretation that might be OK and the rest being a bunch of nonsense. And that's assuming you figured out what attack you're defending against.

Marcus, the Muay Thai method against a hook is great, as are many other methods from other styles which are quicker, tighter and more effective than the opening move of Heian Nidan would be.







When I teach that sequence I show it against a grab as a trap, strike too inside of the elbow to break their stance,

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:22 pm 
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kata/bunkai/oyo

Just reverse it.

oyo bunkai/yakosuko bunkai/kata

(concept in fighting) / (pre-arranged two person rehearsal of concept) / (pre-arranged solo rehearsal of concept)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Dana, I see that as a perfectly acceptable practice, except if you already know the oyo(application) then you don't really need to do bunkai do you? I'd think you'd also see more kata performance that actually reflect the techniques than in the kata/bunkai/oyo learning method.

When I was visiting Bill's dojo I was impressed by how Rich would explain what the moves in the Hojo Undo were used for and their targeting, which made understanding the kata a lot easier than the methods of some other schools.

You've also reminded me of another problem with kata and that is that they can break over time. I'm thinking about Seichin where the finisher move was dropped in the one section with the kicks. Considering how complete each sequence feels in seichin (to me they mostly seem to follow a accept attack, setup, finisher pattern) the missing finisher stands out.

Gotta go to a meeting.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:22 pm 
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Taekido wrote:
The left arm then comes up behind the attacker's left tricep. The next movement in the kata is the right arm going down and the left up and close. This is a simple shoulder lock, very common in Chin Na, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu systems.


Actually this is a different application than the one I thought you were referring to. The one I was thinking about is a grappling move more or less like the one Patrick McCarthy teaches.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Pre-arranged bunkai are like kata - only they have 2 people.
-d

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:55 pm 
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Remember, the pinans were kata developed for middle school kids to do in gym class. It's beginner stuff
Quote:

This is incorrect. The Pinan katas are a very advanced series of kata. They were later 're-labeled by Professor Itosu for inclusion into elementary schools in Okinawa. This re-labeled version is the basis for most of the worlds karate today.

Now if someone can point me to a document written by Itosu where he states otherwise then I'll change my opinion.


http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

This would be a good place to start. Iain is a far better authority than I. Perhaps his research will communicate to you better than I've been able.

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:23 pm 
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Wow, if you think the pinan are very advanced you must really be in awe of enpi or kusanku. :lol:

The problem with it all is that it's all just theory and conjecture. Here's a better article with more information. Also try to find Elmar T. Schmeisser's book on the almost mythical Channan kata. Channan:Heart of the Heians is a interesting read.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=221

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:46 am 
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All I can say partner is you'll never see what you won't look at. The Pinan katas have joint locks, ground fighting, throws, escapes, grappling, cavity presses, nerve strikes etc. Pretty much all you'd need for self-defense.

I've provided material and a link to research should you choose to do so.

Peace.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:47 am 
Quote:
Wow, if you think the pinan are very advanced you must really be in awe of enpi or kusanku.


Hey Mike , if they have no application then what makes one more or less complicated than another ?

after all its just waving your arms and legs around right ?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:37 am 
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Taekido wrote:
All I can say partner is you'll never see what you won't look at. The Pinan katas have joint locks, ground fighting, throws, escapes, grappling, cavity presses, nerve strikes etc. Pretty much all you'd need for self-defense.

I've provided material and a link to research should you choose to do so.

Peace.


Guess I'll just never be as smart as you cowboy. You can see what ever you want to see if you try hard enough, that still doesn't make it so.

Quote:
Hey Mike , if they have no application then what makes one more or less complicated than another ?

after all its just waving your arms and legs around right ?


Marcus,
There are a lot of good uses for kata but I'm standing by my original opinion that "looking for applications in kata is a waste of time as the only secrets in kata are what knowledge that you already have". Having someone reverse engineer a kata that doesn't have working knowledge of how a joint lock works, why striking with a certain tool to a certain target works, etc, is more than likely not going to produce great results in performance or quality of application. Ever wonder why Bill Glasheen can see so much in a kata or for that matter any movement?

Looking for applications in kata is a waste of time because it takes time and focus away from learning techniques, how they work and then training them, and fills that time with trying to figure out what someone intended and never knowing if you really got it right. It's a great hobby but it's not an efficient way to build up practical skills.

Marcus, you know that we've shared our takes on applications from Shotokan and Uechi kata many times, but the name of this forum is Realist Training and I don't feel the use of kata as presented by Dave is realist training.

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