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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:20 pm 
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Marcus, you know that we've shared our takes on applications from Shotokan and Uechi kata many times, but the name of this forum is Realist Training and I don't feel the use of kata as presented by Dave is realist training.


so you just think it`s plain inefficeint ? , thats a little different form impossible , Ive never discovered anything looking at nothing , kata is generic miovement it helps in my exploration , I cant spend all my training time in BJJ class , some of my training is mental too . Studying movement patterns and links and applications , not worthless too me .

I think your an idiot if you dont look at the wider martial arts world and applications , however tying things together through kata , very usefull and realisitc IMHO .

so it`s efficeint if someone else found it and shows you , but inefficeint if you cant see it for yourself ?

Mike I dont think kata is the answer alone , but can provide a holistic link to hopefully short cut indecision making .

while I understand you may consider other methods faster , I think it`s a depends kind of thing ,


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
but the name of this forum is Realist Training and I don't feel the use of kata as presented by Dave is realist training.


You mean by D. Schultz, as this happens to be D. Young's forum.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:41 am 
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Correct Mike.

Stryke wrote:
so you just think it`s plain inefficeint ? , thats a little different form impossible

Not impossible, but to find workable applications the person would have to be experienced with different attacks or at least familiar with something like the HAPV. Like you said earlier, "they offer answers but you need to find the questions", and it's now on the user to figure out both, or make up a question that they can easily answer.

To use Dave S's example of a cover against a hooking type of punch, it could work but it has a lot of problems if you are going against someone with some amount of fight experience or you misjudge what he's throwing. If the first part fails then getting the shoulder lock would be difficult which is the goal that Dave is trying to get to. So in my opinion I'd reject that application and probably the attack I'm defending against for that move because of the cover's weakness. So now I've rejected option one after testing it and now move onto option two and repeat the process, meanwhile the clock is ticking.

On the other hand I can show you 5 easy covers against a hook that work better and you could pick them up in one training session. Get a friend, try them out and pick the ones that work for you. IMO A much more efficient way of learning.

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so it`s efficeint if someone else found it and shows you , but inefficeint if you cant see it for yourself ?


I'm not really sure of what you're asking. :?
If you have little or no experience then having someone with experience teach you what works and why is the best method. Once you get the why of how something works it becomes easier the discover "new" applications on the fly, or pick up new apps easier. For example elbows lock when straightened and can be hyper extended, so how many ways can I straighten someones elbow?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:56 am 
It`s just a softening of your position Mike , I dont think anyone on this thread has said doing single person forms is all you need . Were along way from no one can find anything in kata they dont already know



Quote:
Not impossible, but to find workable applications the person would have to be experienced with different attacks or at least familiar with something like the HAPV. Like you said earlier, "they offer answers but you need to find the questions", and it's now on the user to figure out both, or make up a question that they can easily answer.


I would propose that anyone not exploring HAPV or studying violence with or without forms is in no way doing martial arts . Comng up with HAPV shouldnt be too hard for anyone , regardless of experience , expirementation leads you to them . If the answers arent in your form you should wonder why , you need them anyhow .



Quote:
Once you get the why of how something works it becomes easier the discover "new" applications on the fly, or pick up new apps easier. For example elbows lock when straightened and can be hyper extended, so how many ways can I straighten someones elbow?


I propose that taking this basic anatomical knowledge to kata can reveal many things you are not aware of , combined with HAPV there can be many aha moments .

I dont beleive it is the katas fault here , but the instruction in violence and basic anatomy/positional strategy that is lacking .

I teach from within and without kata , but linking/discovering techniques to form and structure/strategy through kata IMHO is a valid tool , and provides a very comfrotable reference point .

my position is not the typical all is in kata stance , cause the way most teach that is dubious .

Quote:
I'm not really sure of what you're asking.


your stance kind of reads like all self discovery is inefficient , and really kata(or any) application should come from others . I say probably true to a point at the start , but I think folks can get past that fairly quickly if we get into the basics like the anatomy balance stuff etc ....


any application should be tested and should stand on it`s own merits , Im not one for altering the application to fit the kata , but then again kata should be very adaptable too , principles over techniques


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:47 am 
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Guess I'll just never be as smart as you cowboy.


I suppose this depends on how open minded you become as well as perhaps a bit more experience. At any rate, your manners could use some improvement.

I am a high liability professional that has used his training. I also teach other HL professionals that have gone on to use that training in real world altercations against violent felons. The information, applications, strategies, tactics and principles in kata are sound, they are realistic and they work and have worked for quite some time.

Your failure to see this is on you alone, but you should not put your limitations on others, especially those that have been there, done that and survived to teach others. I KNOW what real is, I teach from experience and not theory. If you choose not to acknowledge a method of instruction so be it, your lose.

A shoulder lock is a shoulder lock. There are multiple ways to achieve the application, I provided only one as an example for the discussion. The SAME exact movement can be used from a nose-to-nose grapple/clinch. It is the PRINCIPLE that is demonstrated in the kata. Bunkai can then break it down into various angles, positions, situation etc.

At any rate, it is encouraging to know there are people who understand the value of kata.

Again, the link I provided offers much more for further in-depth research.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Taekido wrote:
I am a high liability professional that has used his training. I also teach other HL professionals that have gone on to use that training in real world altercations against violent felons. The information, applications, strategies, tactics and principles in kata are sound, they are realistic and they work and have worked for quite some time.

Your failure to see this is on you alone, but you should not put your limitations on others, especially those that have been there, done that and survived to teach others. I KNOW what real is, I teach from experience and not theory. If you choose not to acknowledge a method of instruction so be it, your lose.


Excellent David, then please grace us with your high liability professional experience and not some half ass theoretical bunkai. So far all you've given are vague explanations of a basic kata and hand waving about strategies, tactics and principles contained in them. After 30+ years in the martial arts, a 10th dan and a lot of experience in the real world I'd think you could explain things better and in more detail. You could be everything you say you are but I just don't see it from your posts.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:05 pm 
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So much for improving your manners :D You really are quite emotional aren't you?

Anyway, I've posted the same/similar on other boards and your assestment is in the minority by far. You don't see the value for the same reason a thief does not see a policeman...he's not looking.

As far as a 10th Dan, I'm flattered but not sure why you'd think I'm a 10th Dan.

At any rate, your the one with the chip on your shoulder, if discussing something that your inexperienced with is causing you that much difficulty...then don't let it concern you so much. We are all entitled to our views and they don't have to be the same as yours. Others can have very positive experience with kata even if you don't look on them favorably.

Not everyone has to agree with you on everything and perhaps some of us can be right even if you are in disagreement.

Just something to consider :roll:

Now back to the discussion at hand; Kata and its information, applications, strategies, tactics and principles.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:26 pm 
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My oh my, you do make a lot of assumptions, or maybe you're just bad at reading people.

Emotional? Nah, but I do tend to call a spade a spade, and actually argue my point. If that makes you uncomfortable then that's your problem. So far I haven't heard anything from you that would make me think you're a subject matter expert. I could be wrong but I haven't read anything to change my mind.

When I pointed out the problem with your application you waved your hands and said, "Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible". A question, why would you use such a weak entry out of all the possibilities for your example? Why should I buy into the second part of your application if the first wasn't that great?

Quote:
Anyway, I've posted the same/similar on other boards and your assestment is in the minority by far. You don't see the value for the same reason a thief does not see a policeman...he's not looking.


Show me where you posted that application and got rave reviews.

Quote:
As far as a 10th Dan, I'm flattered but not sure why you'd think I'm a 10th Dan.


David, I'm going to be a gentleman and not go into that.

Quote:
Now back to the discussion at hand; Kata and its information, applications, strategies, tactics and principles.


Oh please do, you've been a fount of information so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:01 am 
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My oh my, you do make a lot of assumptions, or maybe you're just bad at reading people.


No, I'm very good at reading people. You're a troll. One who gets in a huff if anyone presents anything out of his comfort zone.

Quote:
So far I haven't heard anything from you that would make me think you're a subject matter expert.


Don't recall claiming to be an expert on kata. A point of view, yes. Details to share and discuss, yes. So far I haven't seen much of you except ignorant banter. I think we are all well aware of your views on kata. It seems many don't share your view, so why even be in the thread? I've been where you are, I was open minded enough to change my opinion after careful research. Your not ready for that step yet.

Quote:
When I pointed out the problem with your application you waved your hands and said, "Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible". A question, why would you use such a weak entry out of all the possibilities for your example? Why should I buy into the second part of your application if the first wasn't that great?


There isn't a problem with the example merely because you say there is one. It is valid and works under duress because it is a gross motor skill. Similar to a reverse elbow spike or elbow 'wing'. It sets up for a multitude of follow up applications. If the guy in your avatar with the snazzy red and white belt is your idea of a good disarm technique...I can see where your difficulty in good CQC techniques is coming from.

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Show me where you posted that application and got rave reviews.


Guess you never followed the links I've provided :roll:

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David, I'm going to be a gentleman and not go into that. [u]

I haven't seen you be a gentleman yet, gentleman have manners and show respect even if someone has a different view point. By all means, go into 'that'.

you've been a fount of information so far.
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Thank you.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:03 am 
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Taekido wrote:
Quote:
My oh my, you do make a lot of assumptions, or maybe you're just bad at reading people.


No, I'm very good at reading people. You're a troll. One who gets in a huff if anyone presents anything out of his comfort zone.

Quote:
So far I haven't heard anything from you that would make me think you're a subject matter expert.


Don't recall claiming to be an expert on kata. A point of view, yes. Details to share and discuss, yes. So far I haven't seen much of you except ignorant banter. I think we are all well aware of your views on kata. It seems many don't share your view, so why even be in the thread? I've been where you are, I was open minded enough to change my opinion after careful research. Your not ready for that step yet.

Quote:
When I pointed out the problem with your application you waved your hands and said, "Remember I stated it was an example, just one of many possible". A question, why would you use such a weak entry out of all the possibilities for your example? Why should I buy into the second part of your application if the first wasn't that great?


There isn't a problem with the example merely because you say there is one. It is valid and works under duress because it is a gross motor skill. Similar to a reverse elbow spike or elbow 'wing'. It sets up for a multitude of follow up applications. If the guy in your avatar with the snazzy red and white belt is your idea of a good disarm technique...I can see where your difficulty in good CQC techniques is coming from.

Quote:
Show me where you posted that application and got rave reviews.


Guess you never followed the links I've provided :roll:

Quote:
David, I'm going to be a gentleman and not go into that.


I haven't seen you be a gentleman yet, gentleman have manners and show respect even if someone has a different view point. By all means, go into 'that'.

Quote:
you've been a fount of information so far.


Thank you.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:48 am 
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Yes David, you've outed me, I'm a troll. I've been hiding it from the people here for years and years. And yes once again you've caught me, I've never had adequate training or tried anything outside of my comfort zone. Oh what trouble I'd be in if some of the people here ever met me and realized that I'm not the same person here that I am in real life. Sorry folks I 'm really a middle-aged guy with a bad back who trains in someones yard. :cry:

So after a little research I see your pattern once again take shape. You even use the exact same phrases when someone challenges what you write. :lol: What is it about you that ticks people off David? Oh yes, you're the lone voice in the wilderness.

Quote:
It seems many don't share your view, so why even be in the thread?


Down with disagreement. That says a lot. Anyway why are you discussing kata on this forum and not on Van's, Bill's or Dana's?

Quote:
I've been where you are, I was open minded enough to change my opinion after careful research. Your not ready for that step yet.


Was that when you were a hachidan in Pangainoon or after you gave up that rank? Was your careful research reading Ian Abernathy's web site? If it was more we'd all love to hear what it was.

Actually the guy in the snazzy red and white belt is not doing a good disarm technique but merely a nice photo for a local newspaper. The stuff that he taught when I trained with him never looked cool enough for a photo. These days I don't train disarms much, there are different things to do.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:03 am 
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There isn't a problem with the example merely because you say there is one. It is valid and works under duress because it is a gross motor skill. Similar to a reverse elbow spike or elbow 'wing'. It sets up for a multitude of follow up applications.


No the problem with it is it leaves your face open, and your arm up in the air in a weak position. It could work but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

How about finding some more bunkai? Here's an easy one for applications. http://uechiryutexas.com/kanshu.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:54 am 
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why are you discussing kata on this forum and not on Van's, Bill's or Dana's?


Don't know who they are.
Quote:
So after a little research I see your pattern once again take shape. You even use the exact same phrases when someone challenges what you write.


Whatever :roll: I enjoy discussion, just can't stand people who can't argue their point without getting nasty.
Quote:
What is it about you that ticks people off?


Only ones I tick off are the ones that aren't used to someone standing their ground with a view point. The ones that don't know how to converse in a polite manner on points of disagreement.
Quote:
Was that when you were a hachidan in Pangainoon or after you gave up that rank?


Where's the 10th you were talking about?
Quote:
Was your careful research reading Ian Abernathy's web site?


Part of it. In addition to two of his books and a DVD. Also there was GM Matson's book on Uechi, Alan Dollar's fine work. Also Lawrence Cane and Chris Wilder's books which I have. Then there are discussions with two of my former instructors as well as other martial artists in various arts.

Quote:
No the problem with it is it leaves your face open, and your arm up in the air in a weak position. It could work but I wouldn't bet my life on it.


Don't have a clue what your talking about? The whole side of the head is covered with one arm i.e. reverse elbow spike/wing. And your assuming what, the other arm is hanging down at the side?

I'm gonna take a deep breath here. I'm gonna go on the assumption that I'm not explaining this in a way that your understanding. Perhpaps if we were face to face talking about it over tea it may make more sense. Let me try this again and see if this thread can be salvaged/turned around to get back on topic rather than a pissing contest between you and I.

Kata are examples of principles more than anything. Using my example from Pinan Shodan, the opening movement is demonstrating the principle of a shoulder lock. There is nothing mystic or hidden about it. It is a standard shoulder lock, a lock/balance displacement to injure/off balance an attacker. Locking the shoulder in the fashion demonstrated by the kata can be achieved by a multitude of entries, from multiple angles and even using the legs while on the ground. A kata, any kata would be impossibly long to show each and every possible technique for a shoulder lock. Would you agree with that? So instead, the principle of a shoulder lock is demonstrated. Again, the entry I described is but one, and it is effective.

If I have failed to describe the entry properly, or in enough detail so as to give a full picture then that is my bad. I'll accept the blame for that. It isnt' always easy to describe dynamic, flowing movements with the written word so as to have the reader follow it through.

Now I will say this to you Mike, I didn't appreciate the way you entered into this thread. Nor did I appreciate the tone I felt you had in many of your posts. However, rather than this go back and forth I'd rather see it get back on track. So if I've done anything to 'tick' you off, you have my apology. Do you want to discuss the topic of this thread in polite conversation? If so, what have I posted that isn't clear or doesn't make sense to you?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:50 pm 
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Taekido wrote:
Now I will say this to you Mike, I didn't appreciate the way you entered into this thread. Nor did I appreciate the tone I felt you had in many of your posts. However, rather than this go back and forth I'd rather see it get back on track. So if I've done anything to 'tick' you off, you have my apology.


First off I really could care less if you don't appreciate how I entered into this thread, as I stated my opinion in a clear and concise manner. You didn't tick me off so much as each of your posts raised a yellow flag. Now finding out a little of your past history I'm trying to figure out why you decided to start your post here on a little used forum instead of hitting one of the busier ones, but I have an idea. I do believe that you are a Deputy in FL with a part time karate school that has an association with SEPSI. I just don't trust you.

You may carry on with your thread and but I'm sitting out the rest of your monkey dance.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:05 pm 
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Taekido wrote:
MikeK wrote:
why are you discussing kata on this forum and not on Van's, Bill's or Dana's?


Don't know who they are.


On the forums page they are listed as moderators. Van's forum is about real self defense issues in a broad way (not primarily about specific techniques). Bill's is about anything (seemingly, at least), and even though Dana's forum is entitled "Women and the Martial Arts", the discussion tends on the technical side and of equal interest to men and women alike. Dave Young's forum is normally quiet unless Dave Young has stopped by to post himself.

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