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 Post subject: Wauke history...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:43 am 
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Would anyone here be able to offer a timeline as to the development and evolution of the Wauke?

I'm particularly interested in the chronology and principles of the "Vertical Plane" Wauke as opposed to the "Inclined Plane" Wauke.

In addition, the concepts of the "Constant Palm Out" type, contrasted with the "Rolling Arm" type.

I just made up those terms to describe my interpretations, I'm sure most folks who have the info will know what I'm referring to.

Please excuse my non-technical descriptions.

Thanks!

~N~

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:28 am 
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Neil

I know what you're talking about, but can't give you a timeline.

There are names for the various blocks.

The pronated (palm out) circle on a plane is wauke or mawashi uke, depending upon the degree of the circle.

The pronaTING (palm in to palm out) circle is hikaki uke. They use it in Goju.

The circle with the diagonal plane is what you do near the end of Seichin in combination with the harai sukui uke (downward scooping block) and leg motion. Don't have a name for it though... It's also hidden in the opening move of Sanseiryu.

I don't know... I'm the kind of guy who believes they're all different manifestations of the same basic movement. So a timeline???

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Neil,
A timeline , are you refering to the modifiying of mawashi-uke via the secondary rolling arm 'or a training aid for the student ,which could be more correct .

Inclined plane v vertical plane ,well i have seen my fair share of mawashi -uke diverse comes to mind , but a inclinded [cutting into] seems more combative ,you know I am into all inclusive properties ,so the mawashi-uke as to go that route for me.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:20 am 
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Thank you both, I took your answers and did some studying.

Alan Dollar's book refers to both " Hirate Mawashi Uke" and "Wauke".
His distinction is that the first uses only one arm, the second uses both arms (adds the secondary block).

(This addresses a mis-understanding on my part. I thought that BOTH were referred to as a Wauke. I gather that only the two-armed version is correctly called the Wauke.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, interestingly, the "form" of the main blocking arm is the same in both of Alan Dollar's examples, and it is clearly illustrated and described as "palm toward the opponent".
You can clearly see this on page 303, third frame photo as the big knuckles pass the eyes, the palm is faced out.

Also interestingly, he makes NO MENTION of the "plane", whether vertical or inclined.


What I am trying to get a handle on, is where the variations of both plane and main-arm form got introduced.

I'm sort of dealing with the co-evolution of TWO concepts here, both intertwined.
One concept is the twisting/rolling forearm idea; the other is the plane of the circular movement.

Are these BOTH taught as separate, distinct techniques for different applications by most teachers, or is it the kind of thing where a teacher will gravitate toward using one particular combo ( e.g., inclined plane, palm out) and teach only that?

And of course, when and how did the variations enter the picture?

~N~

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:34 pm 
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I think the "timeline" or "history" of the wa-uke is when someone, not too long ago, took a bunch of other moves/techniques that were seperate and better understood and then, for whatever reason, rolled them up into a blob and called it what most now know as wa-uke...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:00 am 
Jim:

I would agree that the Wauke is a combination of a number of movements.

I disagree that it is a “blob.”

I disagree with the comment “and better understood.”

I think the people or person who put it together understood the moves as just well as anyone else.

I find the Wauke very functional combative Uechi tool when properly applied.

Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:05 pm 
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The wauke is a beautiful and sophisticated approach to having a "one movement" that can answer all incoming forces. It leads, it redirects, it strikes, it seizes...what more can you ask for in a movement?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:52 am 
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Dana, do you train and use the various forms of the wauke ( vertical, inclined, palm-out, rolling forearm, etc.,) or do you basically stick with one specific version? ( If so, which one?)

I do the vertical plane, rolling forearm, BTW. But I'm aware of the other forms and have played with them.

I'm kind of curious about which form is considered to be the original, and how/why/when the other forms got introduced.

~N~

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:32 pm 
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...rise...drill...overturn....fall...

The words above all contain elements of wauke. Hirate mawashi uke to be specific. Flat hand circle block is a literal translation of a japanese name for a chinese principle of body movement.

Mr. Nakamatsu has shown us a way to use the same motion to cut across the incoming force at a 30-45 degree angle.

I use and train them all because I use and train the one. The shape of the circular movement is decided by how you're transforming the incoming force.

Do I want to turn uke in place or do I want to drill up uke's arm into their face? Do I come crashing down on uke's arm like a ton of bricks with my weight or do I seal his elbow into his ribs? Do I bust uke's balance by slamming across uke's neck or do I let uke enter and pass by only to be seized and tossed as I use two parts of his body as pivot points?

The circle is a principle not a pattern.

It can be an oval, a sphere, or even have some part that is straight, it can look like the letter "O", the letter "D", the letter "J", the number "0", the letter "S", or even a "C". At what point in the circle are you driving up from the ground? At what point are you dropping your weight into the circle? How fast is the attack coming, how slowly, are you ahead of it or behind it? All these things will decide the shape.

If you try to use one shape to answer every force you will fail most of the time, though even a broken clock is correct twice a day. In my way of thinking at this time, if you use the principle of the circle then you will use the right kind of circle with the right kind of force to achieve an outcome that puts you at an advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:35 pm 
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And to answer your question - from what I've seen of the senior students of Kanbun Uechi's students - each has a plane of the circle they like to use, yet each is able to use the circle in multiple planes.

The problem comes when people try to limit the circle to the "one correct" plane.

So, IMHO, there has been and still is just a circle block. Otherwise, it is like naming different kinds of snowflakes.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:36 pm 
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AND - just for fun...
I've been shown at least 6 different versions of watari-uke...and, from what I can see...they are all correct. :)

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