Do you "test" your kids' conditioning?

[Bill Glasheen]

Hey I guessed it back to the bullshit , instead of talking about a base continuim we talk about knives , instead of talking wether you can strengthen/toughen your body we get you will get stabbed .

You forgot to mention the omnipresent Mike Tyson.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

I have observed that I and my students bruise less when we warm up with arm and leg conditioning before engaging in partner work.

Interesting but odd..

For some WCK folks arm conditioning is a byproduct of constant arm contact and dealing with lots of energy through that contact..so it's in conjunction with the other stuff but ever present and the "arm banging" is there but more forward as in colliding..

No need, Jim. I get it. It's the degree to which you can appropriately sense and get around force vs. accept it or bludgeon through it.

Well for me it's the degree to which I can meet force and then allow it to go where it wants, help it do so and then use the space it just left to attack through--the path of no resistance.. Of course there's more to it but I don't want to meet force with my own--ever, if possible, or use pure lateral energy/force to do so most of the time..

[Rick Wilson]

To this day conditioning misconceptions continue.

As always, conditioning comes in when you have failed to avoid the strike.

We want more than just hoping to tough through the strike on our side.

We want to give our bodies a little edge.

What if it was Mike Tyson hitting?

What if it was a knife?

Both those questions begin with the assumption that you volunteer to be hit which is flawed.

What is anyone going to do if Mike Tyson was hitting?

What is anyone going to do if they have a knife?

Same thing as the Uechi folk I suspect – try not to get hit or knifed.

What if it is not Mike Tyson trying to hit you?

What if they do not have a knife?

What if you can’t avoid the strike but when they hit you they roll their wrist and damage it?

What if you can’t avoid the kick and you clash shin on shin and they hurt themselves more than they hurt you?

What if you have never trained your shins and when you clash shins you react in pain dropping your hands towards your hurting shin and they punch you in the head?

What if you have never trained to take a punch and fold over when hit in the stomach by a punch that would not have bothered a person who had their breathing down (let’s assume it was not Mike Tyson but one of the common folk who sometimes don’t punch that hard) and they stab you?

The “what if” scenario can go both ways – what if conditioning would have saved your life?

There are some drills that we do where it is not the optimum situation.

We call this training from a loss position.

Because if you have never been in the loss position you may be in bad shape when you find yourself there.

I do know that standing and allowing myself to be kicked and hit has strengthened and toughened my body and my mind.

I do know that training conditioning has allowed me to have my breathing strong in most situations.

I do know that training conditioning allows me to recover faster than before conditioning.

I do know that in the real world if you think you will never get hit you are in for a major shock.

I also know there are some folk I hate getting hit by and some I would hope never to get hit by.

I do know that nothing protects you from everything and that certainly goes for conditioning.

Which is why I spend more time training avoidance.

But, should they ever hit me, then the question is – what if with conditioning I survive the strike to hit back but without it I don’t?

If I don’t survive the strike then either way, having trained to avoid getting hit and gotten hit, and having trained to take a hit and having the hit do me in – it just wasn’t going to be my day anyway.

So the question is how prepared do we want to be?

A personal choice, and most certainly everyone will decided what they want in their training and they are free to do so BUT it is a decision that Uechi people have made. We include conditioning.

Is it foolproof?

HARDLY, nothing is.

Expecting to avoid all strikes is not foolproof.

It is just one of the tools Uechi practitioners have chosen to use.

[JimHawkins]

And I'm not disagreeing with this as per my second to last post.. My last post was not in reference to 'conditioning' but in reference to my core goals...

The hows and whys may vary from one to another system but as I said all styles condition...

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Jim:

My post was just a general one for the thread and not in response to yours, so no misunderstanding.

[Bill Glasheen]

..... Self-Defense Articles



Reach Out and Punch Someone!

Boxing Glove Training to Build Confidence and Composure in a Confrontation


by Randy LaHaie


The thought of being punched is unsettling to most people. Unless you have a history of participating in contact sports, the fear of being hit can be intimidating and can compromise your ability to defend yourself. In a confrontation the chance of being hit is significant. What if you were struck, kicked or knocked down in a violent encounter? Would you be able to shrug it off and stay focused on defending yourself? If you want to enhance your ability to defend yourself, you need to come to terms with the reality of being hit.

***

Train with a non-competitive mind set

Nothing sabotages the quality of impact training like a competitive attitude. In order to train safely and gain maximum benefit, avoid "keeping score" or trying to out do your partner. The best way to de-sensitize yourself to impact is keep it light, non-threatening, and view being hit with disinterest. Learn to relax and have fun.

***

Protective Strategies

[jorvik]

Now that is much more my cup of tea ....you need to train against real techniques. People who actually punch to your face. There are some dojo techniques, that only work in a dojo ...and as society gets more litlginous, it's always good to have some safety measures in place ........even a slow weak punch thrown to the face.is worth a thousand strong punches thrown over your shoulder

[Bill Glasheen]

Ahh but now I can play devil's advocate with you, Ray!

train against real techniques. People who actually punch to your face.

Punch to the face? What fool punches to the face on the street? Don't you know that all the self-defense experts and the military preach against this? Don't you know how easy it is to have the other person duck? When fist meets frontal bone, the frontal bone will almost always win. What about the risk of hitting the mouth and getting teeth embedded into your knuckles?

Why would you want to have people train something that is a stupid idea on the street?

And FWIW, do you use your brain professionally for anything other than a target? Do you value your neurons and synapses?

There's always a counter - if you look for it. There's always someone else's approach to the same bloody thing.

So why is your world so much better than the worlds you are preaching against? Where are the data to show your method produces better outcomes? Are there substantive differences, or are we talking about stylistic preferences and execution?



- Bill

[Jake Steinmann]

Ahh but now I can play devil's advocate with you, Ray!

train against real techniques. People who actually punch to your face.

Punch to the face? What fool punches to the face on the street? Don't you know that all the self-defense experts and the military preach against this? Don't you know how easy it is to have the other person duck? When fist meets frontal bone, the frontal bone will almost always win. What about the risk of hitting the mouth and getting teeth embedded into your knuckles?

I have no dog in this fight at all, but it is worth pointing that, stupid or not, people will probably try to punch you in the face in a real altercation. It's a pretty instinctive maneuver.

[TSDguy]

I consider myself somewhat of an expert at witnessing (and fleeing from) street/bar fights , and it's extremely, extremely rare for someone to punch to anything BUT the face. And with good reason. No way in hell you're going to drop someone in a short street fight with a body shot.

[Jake Steinmann]

I consider myself somewhat of an expert at witnessing (and fleeing from) street/bar fights , and it's extremely, extremely rare for someone to punch to anything BUT the face. And with good reason. No way in hell you're going to drop someone in a short street fight with a body shot.

Depends on how hard you can throw a body shot.

[jorvik]

Bill
I rest my case
I work with the police, and in my misspent youth I was known to get into a few altercations ......the face is the primary target in a fight.There are lots of reasons for this on a psychological level. The face represents your individuality, your psyche, who you are what you look like.that is what they want to attack..............other than that it's a damm good target, besides .boxers go for it...and you know I love boxing also all the really scary styles of MA were they really can fight have been influenced by boxing, such as Muay Thai, Savate and even modern day kickboxing.......which is the main reason that I argue about conditioning....how can you condition the face? ...I know , from reading that Jack dempsey used to rubb his face with beef brine to harden it .but I'm not gonna do that .it wouldn't go down well in the office, and it would interfere with my armani aftershave
however, I think that the face guards,boxing glove, pads whatever are are darn good idea.....whether you do a traditional art such as Muay thai, Savate or boxing or one of the new more modern disciplines such as karate

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill
I rest my case

The case for what? You've spent most of this thread bashing conditioning and using a mock knifing as a reason not to do it. And now that someone (yours truly, by the way) mentions hitting with a leather-coated pillow, you find religion.

You're consistently inconsistent, Ray.

the face is the primary target in a fight.

So what's your point? Are you proposing that we stop doing arm and leg conditioning, and start hitting each other in the face? To what end? What are you trying to accomplish?

besides .boxers go for it

And so did I when I boxed. And I expected to be hit in the face in the ring, and responded accordingly.

And without the hand wraps and gloves on, it's a different story. Boxing is a sport; self-defense and war are not.

all the really scary styles of MA were they really can fight have been influenced by boxing

Styles like BJJ? Krav Maga? Any style of wrestling? Traditional Japanese Jiu-jitsu?

I don't think so.

What about Uechi Ryu? Care to face Shinjo Kiyohide? Gary Khoury? Joe Pomfret? My grand-student Sal? Raffi in an alley with a knife? Our fellow Uechika serving in Iraq? (Professional warriors.)

Be my guest! I'll sell the tickets!

such as Muay Thai

It predates boxing by a very long shot.

how can you condition the face? ...I know , from reading that Jack dempsey used to rubb his face with beef brine to harden it

This has absolutely nothing (zero, zilch) to do with self-defense. The brine thing (also used by boxers such as Frazier against Ali) has to do with avoiding getting cut.

Cuts on the face are about getting a TKO in a prolonged game with 3-minute rounds. They aren't going to stop a street brawl. Not by a long shot.

Newsflash

Contact work with the head has nothing to do with "taking a hit." It has to do with de-sensitization in the psychological sense ("view being hit with disinterest"), learning a few basic slipping techniques (e.g. "answer the telephone" as found in Seisan kata), and learning to roll with a punch. That's very different from contact work with the forearms, shins, and even the gut where you're ALSO changing your surface anatomy and learning how to create an elastic collision.

But here's the thing, Ray. In a fight, Murphy's law prevails. If you're going to engage, contact "happens" in myriad ways. It's the nature of the beast. One needs to understand it, live it, breathe it, wallow in it, learn how to deal with it, and ultimately "view being hit with disinterest."

It isn't just keeping contact from distracting you from your own agenda. It's also gaining a psychological advantage on an opponent who (hopefully) may find out that he wrote a check that he can't cash. And from my own experience, many people who think they want to fight change their mind when they stumble on someone who doesn't roll over.

Furthermore...

From my personal experience training several thousand people - including and especially women - developing the ability to take contact (either intentional or incidental) w/o getting banged and nicked up keeps the student in the classroom where they can continue to learn. And the more time spent in the classroom, the higher the probability that they'll improve their odds of surviving "whatever."

- Bill

[Stryke]

such as Muay Thai

theres a very good case to suggest Siam influenced the fist/impacting aspect of okinawan martial arts , there was a record of trade between Siam and the Ryu kyus and theres much Of Muay Thai in karate IMHO

were getting back to how you train not what you train , All the good karateka I know go for it , and most of those that go for it usually condition .

But real training means simulating as close as possible real violence and pushing the boundry .

once again were off topic .....

ok sarcasim on .......

which is the main reason that I argue about conditioning....how can you condition the face? ...

Umm you dont , but fortunately only the enlightened seem to lead with the faceblock , hey why dont we cover it up , maybe with something thats got some conditioning so we dont crumple if we do go hit , thats if we dont manage to pull of the avoidance we also practice (whew you have to be so bloody specific )

I dont think you advocate leaving your jaw exposed , or perhaps giving free shots at your testiles ? , afte all they cant be conditioned , why protect them at all ..... why cover them up with a better conditioned target , after all you cant condition them why guard them with something else that er ... can be ?

I know its ridiculous , but cant you see the logic your using ? , something individually cant be protected so why protect/condition anything ?

wonder why folks perfect interecepting/avoiding leg kicks , I mean they cant condition there face right

as for not being able to drop someone with a body shot ... well thats just not true , but it does depend on physical conditon/conditioning etc ....

hmmm ......

maybe those boxers will start doing stuff with medicine balls and such ... oh wait , weve all the seen clips , wonder what thats about .....

[JimHawkins]

Actually I think it is totally possible to condition the face; the head; the neck, etc.. The question is how and who..

According to a study I saw the bones get more dense when they consistently take hits.. The neck muscles get stronger too and aid in absorbing some of the impact.. We learn how to better position the head for the impact as well..

The head is certainly more sensitive to impacts *most of the time* esp face--nose (ouch!) depending on angle because of the brain, and we're more conscious of damage that we're doing, especially IMO as you get older..

But those who take impacts on the head will no doubt get better at it IMO and be less effected by it--harder to rock..