First production fuel cell vehicle (told you so...)

[RACastanet]

Nice car. I have read about it. I have also read somewhere about a fuel cell version with no regen by another company. I'll have to do some research.

And it comes with a top-of-the-line set of discs brakes to back them up.

No, not as backup. They are there to supply braking and insure it at lower speeds. The regen supplements the pads and disks.

regenerative "engine braking"

Nothing new about engine braking. We all do it all the time. The alt or gen on the engine is just set up to work in both directions. However, it still produces zero braking torque at zero speeds.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Nothing new about engine braking. We all do it all the time. The alt or gen on the engine is just set up to work in both directions.

Exactamundo!! Only... we don't piss the energy away, and it's automatic. We recapture some of the energy of movement when we brake.

It's... it's... KISS!

Oh, and did you see what I found out about those "toxic" lithium-ion batteries?

All Lithium Ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream. These batteries, however, do contain recyclable materials that make recycling a good idea.

Tesla provides the centers where you trade your old one in for a new one. You get a break on price because they build the recycle savings into the price of the replacement - at 100,000 miles.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All Lithium Ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream. These batteries, however, do contain recyclable materials that make recycling a good idea.
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I stand corrected.

Rich

[RACastanet]

Exactamundo!! Only... we don't piss the energy away, and it's automatic. We recapture some of the energy of movement when we brake.

This is true, but you can only store as much energy as the battery is rated for. Then it is just like a conventional system except you are wearing down the alt or gen by using it as a motor.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Exactamundo!! Only... we don't piss the energy away, and it's automatic. We recapture some of the energy of movement when we brake.

This is true, but you can only store as much energy as the battery is rated for. Then it is just like a conventional system except you are wearing down the alt or gen by using it as a motor.

Rich

You're using a motor for its intended purpose - to use and/or to generate current. You happen to be able to use the same motor to do both. And you know these things can be made to last a very, very long time.

And they are quite simple, and easy to work on. Otherwise we wouldn't have power coming out the wall socket.

Some of the newer experimental Tesla vehicles have independent motors for each of the wheels, and the torque output is breathtaking. Imagine managing torque distribution completely electronically. You could take 4-wheeling to a new level. It's KISS!

And yes, you can put a fuel cell in this system. That makes it a functional hybrid, and allows you to use both wall-socket and stored energy from H2. That makes it just like one of the GM Chevy Volt concept vehicles.

- Bill

P.S. I'm in the middle of turning my own home heating and power system into a hybrid entity. And I won't have any blackouts from thunderstorms or tropical storms as well. No more Gaston!

[Bill Glasheen]

Rich

In the past you worried about the safety and reliability of the battery packs.

Here's a white paper on the Tesla battery. Good stuff! They don't give away the secret sauce (my own company's nickame for those details we don't release about our "open" products). But you get the general idea how it all works.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I thought I would get back with you on some stats.

I personally put more value in the JD Power reports though, especially the three year reliability survey. GM is up there. Gee, by the way, I saw a Toyota add offering a $2,000 incentive on the Prius this week. They must be really in demand.

I checked with J.D. Power. They give the Prius high marks for reliability (4.5 out of 5). They rate the demand as "medium." As you know, the demand for such vehicles fluctuates with the price of gas. It's also spread out now over a broader range of vehicles with the hybrid technology - including the Camry.

Right now the "high demand" vehicles are gas guzzlers. For now... New laws passed this week in Congress are removing the protection on these trucks. All vehicles are part of the fleet requirements for gas mileage - cars and "trucks" (a.k.a. SUVs) alike.

I also noticed that Honda has discontinued one of its models - the Accord? - so demand is not meeting expectations.

Well here's the deal.

The Accord has been a perennial top seller for years, and the 2008 redesigned model was also named to Car & Driver's 10 Best list.

Sounds like Honda's doing alright.

FWIW, this year a few American vehicles are making various top vehicle and top 10 vehicle lists. Folks like the new Cadillac CTS direct injection engine, and everyone still likes Chrysler's 300C with the MDS Hemi.

Too bad Chrysler's in deep financial trouble.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Originally posted by Rich

I also noticed that Honda has discontinued one of its models - the Accord? - so demand is not meeting expectations

I was referring to the hybrid version.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

This just keeps getting better and better. More "Told you so!"



GM's first entry into the fuel cell market is the Chevy Equinox - a 4-seat "crossover" (CUV). Chevy's having problems though. Right now their entry only has a 150-mile range. That's about half of what most auto experts consider for a "practical" vehicle.

The shortcomings aren't a surprise when you consider the following.

Let's start with how fuel cells work. Back at The Island Hotel, a GM official popped the hood of the Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell car to reveal the engine. Unlike any engine you've ever seen, GM's fuel cell "stack" looks like a series of black and silver plastic boxes with three "diffusers" on each side. That's it.

In fact, you've got to start thinking of fuel cell cars not as the mechanical engines of today. In my test drive of Chevy's Equinox Fuel Cell vehicle, I didn't really notice this "electric propulsion" until I stopped on a rather large hill and then accelerated from zero by punching the pedal to the floor. The car sped up smoothly without any noticeable movement or sound from the transmission system.

Hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles don't "burn" hydrogen in the same way today's engines burn gasoline -- the electricity that drives the fuel cell electric vehicle comes from a chemical reaction between the hydrogen fuel and oxygen from the air.

In Chevy's Equinox Fuel Cell vehicle I tested, the fuel cell system fits within the space of the car's engine compartment, as I described above. There's also a nickel-metal hydride battery pack, which stores energy from the regenerative braking system to increase operating efficiency and boosts acceleration when needed.

Oh my... There's that battery and regen thing again - there for the very reasons I've said all along. But note how they are using older nickel metal hydride battery technology. They are very heavy, and don't hold the same charge. And the waste is much more toxic.

Don't worry; they'll eventually get it down right.

- Bill

Source: Hydrogen Powered Chevy Equinox

[Bill Glasheen]

You were wondering above about the availablility of hybrids today, Rich. Well here's the list. The Prius has a lot of competition today - including from Ford and <ahem> three from GM!


Current Hybrid Models

• Toyota Camry Hybrid
• Honda Civic Hybrid
• Toyota Prius
• Ford Escape Hybrid
• Lexus GS 450h
• GMC Yukon Hybrid
• Saturn Aura Hybrid
• Saturn VUE Hybrid

By the way, I saw a Lexus GS 450h on the road the other day (I-95). That thing could get up and go! He lost me doing 90-something.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Oh my... There's that battery and regen thing again

I do not care who makes it, the hybrid is an interim technology that I do not get excited about. The market is those folks that want to be 'green' or to look involved in saving the earth from man made global warming. Even with gas at $3.00 a gallon the economics do not make sense.

People who look at them critically do not purchase them. For instance, when are you going to stop talking and start shopping? You have been telling me how great hybrids are for years now and you still drive that combustion engine van. What are you waining for? I know... a pure hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

the hybrid is an interim technology that I do not get excited about.

This is where we disagree. I've been telling you since day one that hybrid technology needs to be mastered before fuel cell vehicles can practically hit the road. Hybrid technology will be an essential ingredient in practical fuel cell transportation. So far I have been proven correct.

Every single example I've shown you has elements of the hybrid as essential either to the functioning of an all-out hydrogen vehicle or of some permutation of an electric car. Why?

• In a motor there is no free lunch. High torque requires high current flow. Fuel cells don't produce electrons from hydrogen fast enough to get the torque you need for a motor to drive a vehicle of any size. And that would mean a vehicle that can drive me, my boys, and stuff every day from point A to B to C to A in stop-and-go city plus Interstate traffic. But store some of that energy (the way for example we store phosphocreatine in our muscles) and you will have what it takes to get off the line at the stoplight or onto the Interstate from the on ramp. And with the new lithium-ion batteries, that storage space for electrons doesn't have to be heavy.
• The energy density of hydrogen per unit volume is a big, big problem. We've been spoiled by driving cars off of long-chain aliphatic and aromatic compounds. Hydrogen's energy density is a fraction of that of gasoline - even in its most dense, liquid form. This means having the range you need (around 300 miles or hopefully more) is going to be compromised unless you find ways to make the entire assembly more efficient. Regen shines here - particularly for yours truly who drives in stop-and-go traffic every single morning. With the boys in their 2 private schools, I am the school bus. Every soccer dad and soccer mom is faced with the same issues.
• Once you have regen and batteries in place, you make getting some of that energy from the wall socket of your garage possible. The Tesla gets 100% of its considerable power and reasonable range from wall socket. GM has opted to use wall socket power as part of any number of combinations in its Chevy Volt concept vehicle. And of course electrons can be stored much more densely than hydrogen atoms.

People who look at them critically do not purchase them.

First, gasoline is relatively cheap now, so people keep buying the gas guzzling SUVs. It takes an inflation-adjusted gas price of something like what we saw in the 1970s to get people to change their habits.

Second, the technology is changing by the year. It's like the early days of the personal computer when they used to say "There are only 2 types of computers: experimental and obsolete." So people mostly are waiting until they get around to needing a vehicle. That's when they decisions will be made - one vehicle at a time.

when are you going to stop talking and start shopping?

I have this problem. It's those pesky Japanese engines. I have one Nissan and one Subaru engine with 100K each, and another Nissan engine with almost 200K, and they are all running fine. Given their dependability, the low cost of insurance, the low taxes, etc., it makes no sense for me to buy now. I'm just going to keep driving what I have until one of them breaks.

That was different with my American-made engines (4 Saturn engines in the same vehicle, and the engine in my Plymouth Sundance).

Also...

"People who look at them critically" will note that until recently, no hybrids were available in the kind of vehicle I drive. GM is the first, although they are using the heavy, clunky, old design batteries. I'll consider it when it's time. However by then, I'll probably be looking at a BluTec diesel (they finally cleaned up the US fuel), diesel hybrid, fuel cell/electric, or some other permutation.

These hybrids are like the rapid development in PCs when they first came out. There were the Radio Shack TRS-80s and Apple 2Cs and the various Z80-based machines, etc., etc. I was excited to see all of this, but waited. Then IBM came out with the Intell 8088-based machine. I jumped in with the first clone of an IBM PC (a Columbia). I held on to it until my dissertation was written and then some. Now I have 2 desktops and 2 laptops in the house.

Oh and I stayed on a normal phone line access to the Internet (no DSL) until Verizon brought fiberoptic into my neighborhood. I went from phone line to 30 MB access in one day. (That allowed me to work from my home in Virginia rather than move to Boston where real estate is ridiculous. Now several in my Boston-based company are doing the same thing.)

There is a "right time" for each and every one of us. The techno-geeks don't mind spending extra money to be first. I love them, because they help pay for what I will buy in the next generation or two. And for some of us (in research) with the technology vision, we can anticipate where that sweet spot will be, and what it will look like.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

it makes no sense for me to buy now

You said it. Hybrids make no sense except for show. They do not need to be perfected to get to a pure fuel cell driven machine. They are a waste of time and money that should be focused not on incremental improvements but the 'home run' of a hydrogen based energy product.

Rich