ryoute -an interesting viewpoint on Sanchin

[jorvik]

this art developed out of Zen shorin do ( which is now known as Ko-Do ryu)
some interesting comments about kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kjhdcDy ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mA7dof ... re=related

and some Ko-Do ryu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai1HtkMMrEc

Quote

There was a time in the history of Zen Shorin Do Karate when the kata known as Sanchin was used for pushing hands. As a practitioner I was quite proud of the fact that we only used material from our kata and nothing else. It gave Zen Shorin Do a feel of completeness. Sanchin (our first kata) was for pushing hands, Rokushu (our second kata) was used for grip escapes and Naifuanchin (our third kata) was a double hand grappling kata. But inevitably it fell apart. I had put much effort into getting my pushing hands to resemble Sanchin and encouraged others to do the same. Zen Shorin Do had a style of pushing hands unlike any other style. Structurally it was closer to sticking hands from Wing Chun than it was to Tai Chi’s style of pushing hands. Of course it was influenced heavily by Wing Chun because Nathan Johnson (one of the founders) was a Wing Chun instructor. Maybe this is just what you get when you stick a load of Karate ka and Wing Chun practitioners in the same room, and then make them build something out of Sanchin. But perhaps this is a simplification.

Sadly Sanchin is not a pushing hands kata, and when Nathan et al realised this, the art started to fall apart for me. I might have been more receptive to this change in the art, if it wasn’t for the fact that when I suggested Sanchin was for grappling (less than a year before) the idea was poo-poo-ed (in favour of increasingly elaborate pushing hands applications). But who am I to argue with the masters? I guess sheer bloody mindedness pushed me to put all my effort into making my pushing hands look like Sanchin. If I couldn’t change anything by suggesting an alternative theory that was more likely, then I would have to disprove it by following it to its logical conclusion. I don’t remember feeling resentful at the time but with hindsight maybe I should; but never mind!

taken from
http://www.ryoute.com/articles/article008.asp

[MikeK]

Looks like someone trying to make something complicated.

[jorvik]

Quote
"
Looks like someone trying to make something complicated."

Yeah or more respectable There were a couple of things that interested me though. the first was this style "Zen shorindo " was created using kata from different systems...I don't think anybody really looked into the origins of these kata..they just wanted something to hang their idea of "pushing hands" onto.............the predecessor to this was the "Buddhist art of Wing-Chun" .and they tried to do the same with that. The Zen shorindo folks moved on to form Ko-Do ryu...where they also used weapons.....as in this version of Uechi Sanchin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL2RVgR91ME
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5WbjYZftqs

whereas the guy who did Ryoute.....found that the pushing hands didn't fit Sanchin and so used the movements of "pushing hands" to develop his own kata.or to try and rediscover kata based on these techniques and in so doing found some interesting things in Sanchin

The second thing that interested me though was the thought that when folks try to recreate the origin of a style they have no conception of what started it or even why it was started..........that could be lost in the mist of time.........maybe someday folks will talk of Nathan Johnson like Shushiwa

[MikeK]

The second thing that interested me though was the thought that when folks try to recreate the origin of a style they have no conception of what started it or even why it was started..........that could be lost in the mist of time.........maybe someday folks will talk of Nathan Johnson like Shushiwa

And all that staring into the mists of time is one of the reasons that I've drifted away from karate and don't use kata when teaching. Personally I can't see the point of looking so far back for meaning when there are people who are doing things in our time that know the meaning of what they teach. Some of whom even speak the same language as me.

whereas the guy who did Ryoute.....found that the pushing hands didn't fit Sanchin and so used the movements of "pushing hands" to develop his own kata.or to try and rediscover kata based on these techniques and in so doing found some interesting things in Sanchin

I listened to both links and didn't hear anything he said interesting or any discoveries. But it may be that I just couldn't stand listening to him and his rules for double hand grappling. I think kata can be used for many things, but sometimes people go off into the weeds with trying to make them fit into whatever they have in mind.

I look at the following and have to wonder why someone would come up with a drill for techniques that are very, very simple? What thought process is going there? And their push hands is horrible. No base, no balance and no jing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA0elylU ... re=related

[Bill Glasheen]

The push hands in Ray's (jorvik's) first post here is interesting, and I can see Sanchin elements.

I have to agree with you, Mike, that the push hands exercises in your post really suk. I would call that martial masturbation. In addition to your criticism... To start with, there is an obsession with grabbing the wrists. No Uechika worth his salt grabs wrists. (Go ahead - make my day! ) And second... there is an obsession with the head-to-head. There's no hint of trying to get off the line of force, yielding, absorbing energy, etc.

I had to stop listening to Martin Clewett. From his absurd pronunciation of Japanese words to his pseudo intellectual rants about nothing, he just irritated the **** out of me.

- Bill

[MikeK]

So it's just not me that had that reaction to Martin Clewett?

http://www.ryoute.com/

The voice over reminds me Jim Jones.
http://www.ryoute.com/examplesofryoute_vid.asp

[jorvik]

Yeah
Martin Clewett grated on my nerves as well ........This stuff didn't really interest me as much as the way it developed and the reasoning behind it.
If I remember the reasoning was that as shaolin was a monastery they wouldn't fight and therefore the katas and pushing hands were there as a meditational exercise.....this started with Wing -Chun ....then they applied it to a couple of katas. Sanchin being the main one, and not the Uechi Sanchin but the very linear Goju version and tensho ( even though this was invented by Miyagi ).........now I thought this was a really interesting idea ............ .however when they started doing it with weapons the logic seemd to fail a bit
I think that as a supplement to ordinary training a lot of Uechika would benefit from doing this type of stuff.
The other thing this brings home to me is how ideas can drift away from what they started of as.....I've seen this in a lot of arts.such as Aikido and shotokan.and even Uechi

[JimHawkins]

The voice over reminds me Jim Jones.

Less the British accent? I knew it sounded familiar..

I had to wince every time he said 'kata' however he said that..

The one thing addressed that I can relate to is the idea of two handed actions.. Something that I see as the hallmark of many latter day CMA and JMA that sprang from same.

The ability to use two hands to do two different things (movements/techniques) in one action (along with body movement) is IMO critical for applying some of these arts and particularly my art (WCK) with a good level of skill. Many folks are missing this ability, some I think for a lack of working on this skill enough.. I don't know about the methodologies used in some other arts but in WCK you just can't be good at it without this skill.

Bill--

How would one categorize these kind of actions from a physiological standpoint? Is this fine motor or related?

There seems to be a strong tendency for many people in many arts to execute moves sequentially (although they may have trained otherwise), the mind seems, in some cases, to want to focus on a single move at a time, although done with speed--it's more often sequential, especially under stress. For me I find some of the actions to be easier than others and this also seems to equate to how much I have trained certain moves..

Any thoughts?

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

You have stumbled on something really important. It deserves a thoughtful reply. More later.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Found this in their FAQ and it clears up some of what they're doing.

Q2. What does Ryoute mean?
A2. Literally translated it means both hands.

Q3. Is Ryoute a fighting art?
A3. No

Q4. Is Ryoute a self defence art?
A4. No

Q5. Is Ryoute a combat art?
A5. No

Q6. Why do any form of grappling if not for practical reasons?
A6. It's fun.

Check out their Wiki. Interesting in a very strange sort of way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Martinclewett

[jorvik]

Yeah
it really started with a wing chun group " The buddhist way of Wing-Chun".......which later became Zen shorindo and then branched out into Ko-Do ryu, and Ryoute

I have a video by the Wing-Chun group ( the voice over is even more irritating than Mr.Clewitt ..a Pedantic, upper class English Toff)
just did a search and they have a book out, but it doesn't look like their site is around anymore


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddhist-Wing-A ... 095359890X

I wouldn't recommend the book.based on my copy of the video.not as martial arts material anyway

[martinclewett]

Sorry for being slow on the uptake. But if anyone wants to ask me anything directly, please go ahead.

Seriously no ill will intended.

Martin Clewett

[Bill Glasheen]

Well this is so long ago, and we've lost access to a lot of the videos, so I'm not sure how we can get the conversation properly started again.

But welcome aboard.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

The voice over reminds me Jim Jones.

Less the British accent? I knew it sounded familiar..

I had to wince every time he said 'kata' however he said that..

The one thing addressed that I can relate to is the idea of two handed actions.. Something that I see as the hallmark of many latter day CMA and JMA that sprang from same.

The ability to use two hands to do two different things (movements/techniques) in one action (along with body movement) is IMO critical for applying some of these arts and particularly my art (WCK) with a good level of skill. Many folks are missing this ability, some I think for a lack of working on this skill enough.. I don't know about the methodologies used in some other arts but in WCK you just can't be good at it without this skill.

Bill--

How would one categorize these kind of actions from a physiological standpoint? Is this fine motor or related?

There seems to be a strong tendency for many people in many arts to execute moves sequentially (although they may have trained otherwise), the mind seems, in some cases, to want to focus on a single move at a time, although done with speed--it's more often sequential, especially under stress. For me I find some of the actions to be easier than others and this also seems to equate to how much I have trained certain moves..

Any thoughts?

For me I always have to go back to real fights ,one fight involved a single Nagashi zuki ,I did not realise in training that it had acheived instinctive status ,and I was seated at the time on a stool .

Another was ,I was jumped of higher ground ,I had ample time to prepare ,but taken slightly by surprise by his jump straight at me ,I was caught stationary ,I met the attack head on using two hands to press down his whole momentum ,to finish him of with a closed gate head counter .

Another was in mud , two handed work and dynamic tension won the day in a slipping and sliding battle for control .

These are just a few situations.

That involve the ability to improvise within the situation .
,two handed skills can be vital .

[maxwell ainley]

Lots of people in training have not had bloody encounters for real and this includes high ranking martial artists ,not their fault by the way ,and maybe they would do well in confrontations ,I truly hope so .

My point is; a much better view of how a move/moves may work under real violent exposure .

Such as you are pounded into the iron railings at your rear ,these are not ropes around a wrestling ring ,you can't do a rope adope of these railings because your back spine head is in severe pain ,and his follow through is attempting to shove your head through the spikes on top of the rail.