Goju-Ryu Tensho form

[miked]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAtvZ8Poi4

Goju Tensho form performed by Master Chinen.

Before I incorporate this form into my practice, I would like to hear opinions from the Uechi community concerning the kata and the performance as demonstrated by Master Chinen.

Comments?

Thanks,

Mike DeDonato
www.uechi-la.org

[nosib]

Why bother? Take away the forced
breathing (which could be dangerous)
and you pretty much have everything
anyway. Just do more sanchin....do it
47 ways from sunday and discover
everything you can about it. It is
blatantly and subtley an awesome
exercise that has much to offer and
never gets old.

[JimHawkins]

Why bother? Take away the forced
breathing (which could be dangerous)
and you pretty much have everything
anyway. Just do more sanchin....do it
47 ways from sunday and discover
everything you can about it. It is
blatantly and subtley an awesome
exercise that has much to offer and
never gets old.

Agreed.

Unless you are just into kata.

And beyond doing more kata there of course is the chance to do more alive work, energy drills, rolling, sparring, etc, etc, etc...

[miked]

"Take away the forced breathing (which could be dangerous)"

Someone please explain why the Goju forced breathing may be dangerous.

Thank you,

Mike DeDonato
www.uechi-la.org

[JimHawkins]

"Take away the forced breathing (which could be dangerous)"

Someone please explain why the Goju forced breathing may be dangerous.

Thank you,

Mike DeDonato
www.uechi-la.org

Breathing has been discussed ad infinitum on these forums.

Some feel that it is far less than the optimum way to get oxygen, manage stress/energy and generate 'loose' power. It may also tend to increase the chances for stroke..

Adding in fists is another issue..

I'm sure others and Bill will have plenty of thoughts on the matter and on the matter of adding in more (Goju) kata.

Just out of curiosity, what particular benefits do you hope to glean from adding in this kata?

Bill--

Are the strikes along the shoulder line the way you did them? Some suggest that these strikes and others from Uechi should be to the center--yes even though it's not WCK.

[maxwell ainley]

Miked.

Tensho must offer something ,it is supposed to offer Ju aspects of the system ,here again it depends what the creator had in mind ,and at what level you are to take on board its principles ,that one may or could not see, say in sanchin .
I spend a lot of time to sanchin ,so for me I would be extracting Tensho elements from sanchin ,the other way around ,and I would be prepared to use them at the drop of a hat in a fight .
Understanding movement and principles ,then test with a fight .

[Kuma-de]

Jim Hawkins wrote:

Some feel that it is far less than the optimum way to get oxygen, manage stress/energy and generate 'loose' power. It may also tend to increase the chances for stroke..

Sorry Jim,

The paradigm suggesting that Ibuki breathing from Goju Ryu kata is a fallacy drawn from the years that Okinawan practitioners did not have the proper medications to handle high blood pressure (HBP) and the likes.

Many Shorin and Uechi practitioners, as well as Goju-ka too died while practicing various kata due to be the vanquished after WWII.

They were unable to utilize their HMO's prescription plans for the much needed medication to prevent HBP and strokes. Miyagi Sensei died in '52 from one, but he had been going downhill physically for several years and if you look at the photo below you will see an ailing, bloated man, a time bomb for a stroke.

I have been doing Goju Tensho & Sanchin for 36 years w/o any ill effects. My Sensei, Teruo Chinen has been training for over 50 years and has had no ill effects from the kata.

Miyagi Sensei doing bunkai w/ Miyazato Ei'Ichi Sensei:



Miyagi Sensei seated in middle, notice the difference in his stature, bloated and ill. (Miyazato right shoulder, Yagi behind Miyagi Sensei, & Toguchi Sensei at Miyagi Sensei's left shoulder):



Sometimes we do not look back at the historical reasons for the stories that are handed down as "fact"!

[JimHawkins]

Jim Hawkins wrote:

Some feel that it is far less than the optimum way to get oxygen, manage stress/energy and generate 'loose' power. It may also tend to increase the chances for stroke..

Sorry Jim,

The paradigm suggesting that Ibuki breathing from Goju Ryu kata is a fallacy drawn from the years that Okinawan practitioners did not have the proper medications to handle high blood pressure (HBP) and the likes.

So they died when doing the kata? But the kata/breathing was not responsible because they were already at risk?

So, I take it you are saying that it does not increase vascular pressure--as in straining?

This kind of breathing as I have seen and trained similar kinds of breathing is still not what I would consider optimal for looseness/relaxedness, flow and energy management, though it may be optimal for other things. It appears to aid in making folks tight and tense as in dynamic tension, etc, which is how some of these folks train, no?

What in your opinion is the purpose for this kind of breathing?

[Kuma-de]

Jim Hawkins wrote:

Some feel that it is far less than the optimum way to get oxygen, manage stress/energy and generate 'loose' power. It may also tend to increase the chances for stroke..

Sorry Jim,

The paradigm suggesting that Ibuki breathing from Goju Ryu kata is a fallacy drawn from the years that Okinawan practitioners did not have the proper medications to handle high blood pressure (HBP) and the likes.

So they died when doing the kata? But the kata/breathing was not responsible because they were already at risk?

So, I take it you are saying that it does not increase vascular pressure--as in straining?

This kind of breathing as I have seen and trained similar kinds of breathing is still not what I would consider optimal for looseness/relaxedness, flow and energy management, though it may be optimal for other things. It appears to aid in making folks tight and tense as in dynamic tension, etc, which is how some of these folks train, no?

What in your opinion is the purpose for this kind of breathing?

Who died from doing the kata??? It is a fallacy that Goju folks died from this kata. Yes, some Goju Ryu folks died post WWII and it was alleged that this kata was the cause, as was the re-designed Sanchin kata.

The Sanchin in-ibuki (softer breathing) and yo-ibuki (stronger) breathing is present in both kata.

There are 5 types of breathing in Sanchin & Tensho:

• long inhale - long exhale
  short inhale - short exhale
  long inhale -short exhale
  short inhale -long exhale
  irregular breathing (like ending a marathon)

If you watch Chinen Sensei from the Okinawan Jundokan perform you will see this cycled throughout the kata. The irregular is the ending of the kata almost a panting to make sure that your breathing is controlled.

The coordination of the breathing with muscle actions/motions allows the body to exchange oxygen/ carbon dioxide from the lungs faster.

I have trained in day-long classes with my sensei and each time we start to slow down and tire we start Tensho and after a few cycles through the kata I feel great.

There are many that have "heard" this old wives tale about Tensho which was developed from a Chinese form called Rokugoikkishu.

Here are some links to some of my previous posts on another forum:

http://martialartsfriends.com/groups/fo ... s/id_1548/

Tensho Research thread:

http://martialartsfriends.com/groups/fo ... s/id_1549/

[JimHawkins]

Well whatever you call it, that kind of breathing and movement in some of those clips appear to be as soft as a balloon about to burst--I mean when some folks do that you'll see a vein standing out prominently on their forehead! Just my take..

Most Southern Chinese forms I have seen do not use this kind forced tension in breathing, in movement, in energy--though I am sure some must.

None of those movements, as done there, are what I would term soft. Soft in my book doesn't exist where there is dynamic tension--what I would call stressed or forced breathing and tension, which to me reflects the iron shirt element--hard..

As far as soft and hard, I guess then depends on one's definitions of hard and soft. Personally, I see both elements in most forms but in my book they should be expressed with alive spring energy, not dead tense/stiff energy--but to each his own.

[Bill Glasheen]

I speak from experience here. I have instructor status in both Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu.

<sigh... >

Thanks for jumping in, Mr. Prouty. I won't feel like I'm alone here.

Why bother? Take away the forced
breathing (which could be dangerous)
and you pretty much have everything
anyway. Just do more sanchin....do it
47 ways from sunday and discover
everything you can about it. It is
blatantly and subtley an awesome
exercise that has much to offer and
never gets old.

I can't count how many ways this post was ill-informed and narrow-minded. But then again, it isn't much different than some of the catty, bitchy stuff I've heard (only a handful of) senior Uechi people say about their Goju brothers.

Breathing potentially dangerous? Please present the evidence.

Just do more sanchin? Whose sanchin? The Goju Sanchin? The Isshinryu Sanchin? Or your Sanchin? Please be specific. Then explain why the particular Sanchin in question is better than something else you are advising not to do. Please explain why it's so important to limit our scope.

Let's put this in perspective. Right now I am teaching a pregnant woman the Goju brand of Sanchin - complete with the dynamic tension breathing. I don't do it quite like Chinen above. My personal belief is that he's a bit "over the top." But he's free to explore this in whatever direction he chooses so long as he is breathing - which he is.

Why would I be teaching Goju Sanchin to a pregnant Uechi student? Already it has helped her with some unpleasant gastrointestinal side-effects of being pregnant. She's improving gastric motility w/o having to strain. Last Saturday she told me so, and thanked me profusely. Breathing exercises also come in VERY handy later on during delivery.

ANYTHING can be overdone. You can drink too much water and die. It happened recently on a radio station contest.

Miyagi Sensei died in '52 from one, but he had been going downhill physically for several years and if you look at the photo below you will see an ailing, bloated man, a time bomb for a stroke.

I agree, Jim. From his picture, we see a man clearly suffering from metabolic syndrome. Without medication to handle likely hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and type II diabetes (betcha he had all three...), he was a ticking time bomb.

Let's also not forget that the time after World War II was a tough time for many. Most Russian survivors of World War II died very, very young from the stress of war. Read Grossman's On Combat where he talks about this. And the Russians weren't practicing Goju. So there is a comparable "control group."

Also consider that many Asians don't handle alcohol very well (due to a lack of ethanol dehydrogenase), and quite a few were/are alcoholics. So let's throw some liver disease in there...

So, I take it you are saying that it does not increase vascular pressure--as in straining?

Go back and look at the clip again, Jim.

Now I want to emphasize that there are some things I do differently than Mr., Chinen. I will address that later.

But study the breathing. What is he doing?

As I tell my kids to whom I might teach such breathing, "You must snort like the dragon, and then breathe fire like the dragon."

When you are "breathing fire", your epiglottis (and in this case his throat as well) is acting like a restrictive valve (like a pressure cooker weight) to the release of gas from the chest as the diaphragm, abdominals, and intercostals are attempting to reduce the size of the thoracic cavity. They are increasing the intrathoracic pressure to a level deliberately controlled by the practitioner.

IN ADDITION...

When you are "snorting", your nostrils act as a resistance to the diaphragm, abdominals, and intercostals which are attempting to expand the chest cavity. Thus on every inhale, you are creating highly NEGATIVE intrathoracic pressure.

If you do it right, yin balances with yang.

If you do it right, the negative swing of the intrathoracic pressure balances with the positive swing thereof.

If you do it right, the agonists and antagonists in your breathing muscles are getting equal exercise.

If you do it right, you are also coincidentally "milking" the vena cava. When you inhale, you do more than suk air in. The higher-than-normal negative intrathoracic pressure will suk blood from the periphery and into the relatively compliant vena cava. Then when you exhale, you squeeze that blood into the right heart, thus stimulating a number of sensors in the right heart, the aorta, and the carotids. Paradoxically, this starts to make the AVERAGE blood pressure go down.

The reason why I understand this so well is that I happened to be working on my dissertation on cardiopulmonary rhythms when learning Goju. So I had the advantage of understanding the first-principles physiology, and optimizing my practice along those lines.

This is no different than working on your bench and then your seated rows in the weight room. You are doing progressive resistance training. That's proven to make you stronger. Hitting air molecules (fast strikes against the air) isn't going to make you stronger. Hitting a bag will. Moving weights will. Or doing dynamic tension will. This kind of activity serves a purpose, as do other kinds of activities.

There is no machine in a weight room to exercise your diaphragm or intercostal muscles. This kind of breathing - done with Goju Sanchin, Tensho, or done in conjunction with classic resistance training - is the only kind of activity that will make these important muscles stronger.

More in another post...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAtvZ8Poi4

Goju Tensho form performed by Master Chinen.

Before I incorporate this form into my practice, I would like to hear opinions from the Uechi community concerning the kata and the performance as demonstrated by Master Chinen.

Comments?

Thanks,

Mike DeDonato
www.uechi-la.org

Here is MY PERSONAL OPINION. (Danger, danger!!!!!!!!)

Kata fantastic.

Performance not my cup of tea.

Let me explain.

This reminds me a lot of working with Miss Vicki (chef) on Kanchin just last Saturday. In trying to be "strong", she was limiting the range of motion of her shoulder muscles. This IMO violates a yin yang principle of Goju and pangainoon.

Let me give a specific example. I have this fellow Harry (he's a good sport) who has a "classic" sanchin problem. When I tell him to pull his shoulder (acromioclavicular joint) down in Sanchin, his thrust goes down to his belly. When I tell him to get his strikes higher, the shoulder (AC joint) pops up. Aaarrrggghhh!!! It's the classic "cross talk" problem we work on in Uechi Ryu so much. (I stole that term from Dr. X. ) It's the "pat your head and rub your tummy" syndrome. The yin and yang of Sanchin means we need to have some muscles strong and other muscles relaxed (or more relaxed as in the case of the dynamic tension Tensho). So we need to be able to pull that shoulder down REALLY hard while having the shoulder action as loose, relaxed, and large in range of motion as possible.

Some of the movements in Tensho are also in Kanchin. Can you dig it?

The very "issues" I have with Mr. Chinen here (pardon me, sir) were the issues I was having with Miss Vicki on Saturday with Kanchin. As she got really intense and strong, her movements were getting smaller and smaller. It's classic. You see it in every dan test.

I pointed out to Miss Vicki how important it was to get more movement in the larger muscles of the body like her deltoids in the wrist movements or circles, and her hip flexors in the hawk-chases-sparrow motion.

I was taught a Tensho where the wrist movements had more shoulder range of motion, and the circles were both "centered" and bigger. That's the short of it.

It doesn't surprise me that a Tensho with breathing that was a touch "over the top" (in my humble opinion) was matched with shoulder movement that was just a bit too restricted.

Hey... we all look a bit ugly on film on a bad day and when trying too hard.

If you'd like, Mike, I'd be happy to teach you Tensho at camp some time. It is a most wonderful kata.

More importantly, I use both martial and "generic" movements done with dynamic tension - combined with this kind of breathing - to add to my general training. I find it fantastic to do as a warm-up. Oddly enough, my Goju instructor did Tensho as a class "warm down." But then ours was a bit bigger and with a little more subtle "dragon" breathing.

Dynamic tension movements - with breathing - done in-between weight training days is a good way to milk fresh blood into sore muscles and tendons, and get some fresh synovial fluid into the joints.

There is also a general principle being worked on here. Move freely? Breathe freely. Pushing a hard weight? Make sure your breathing matches the physical movement in some kind of logical way. One benefit of increasing the intrathoracic pressure is that it increases the tension of your core. That can work to your advantage when heaving a weight (or hitting someone) with a whole-body motion.

But note... DO NOT VALSALVA. Don't shut that epiglottis when you fight. That is your pressure release valve if you get hit unexpectedly.

Everything in the right amount, and with the right balance.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill--

Are the strikes along the shoulder line the way you did them? Some suggest that these strikes and others from Uechi should be to the center--yes even though it's not WCK.

I do not do them to the center.

It's like this... A great master once told me "Kata is kata; application is application." In other words, do your kata in the most general fashion possible so you can go the most number of different ways with it in your application. Kata should be a reference book, and not a story book. It ideally evolves to the lowest common denominator of as many different tools in your arsenal as you can train and use. Done in that fashion, it becomes the glue that binds so many different things together. It expands rather than restricts the possibilities.

Others disagree. But they tend to be in the minority amongst the experienced that I talk to.

My UVa strength coach (and former world heavyweight powerlifting champion) felt the same way about what we do in the weight room. As I have grown in my weight training, I find myself agreeing with him more and more. Many of the really "old fashioned" exercises - like the Olympic lifts - are in the end the most generally beneficial. And we only have so much time to train and so many calories to burn in an optimal training mode.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Bill,

Isn't there some type of new fangled breathing that they send pregnant couples to learn for natural child birth?? HA HA Hee Hee, cleansing breath, etc.

Teruo Chinen tells us that our tensho descends from a female white crane instructor. Who knows?

Here is Russ Smith performing Tensho in Penang Malaysia this past year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxVOR4-ubRI

This is Morio Higaonna's teacher An'Ichi Miyagi, a student of Choju Miyagi doing Tensho:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p8rmq9iv4

Difference due to ages and approach of the kata.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,

Isn't there some type of new fangled breathing that they send pregnant couples to learn for natural child birth?? HA HA Hee Hee, cleansing breath, etc.

Teruo Chinen tells us that our tensho descends from a female white crane instructor. Who knows?

I have been through 2 pregnant mom classes, and been "coach" for my wife through the delivery of two 9 1/2 pound babies. Big Irish-headed boys. Vaginal deliveries. (My wife still curses me for my genes... )

Yes, they teach breathing in these pregnancy classes. But having been through both the class and then the actual deliveries as coach with mom, I've always felt like they could do a better job here.

That's why I've always felt that Goju Sanchin is a great exercise for a pregnant mom. When taught properly, it will involve many more "classroom" hours of breathing mastery than any of the quickie classes that women get with their husbands.

The goal of delivery is to push that watermellon through the neck of a coke bottle without popping any blood vessels in your brain from straining. It's easier said than done.

Here's an exercise to try some time when you are constipated. Instead of straining, try instead to do this kind of breathing. When you master it, it's like magic. No neck-vein straining. No hemmorhoid-making abdominal activity. It's as if someone turned the gastric switch on.

You have to experience it to appreciate it.

As a frequent traveler who experiences the all-too-common bout of constipation, I've found these techniques to make my life a lot more pleasant.

- Bill