More mind/body power

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Bill Glasheen
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More mind/body power

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Those of you who love alternative medicine and drink from the fountain of chi, take note. Here's the same thing, only exposed from the standpoint of modern medicine. I love this stuff.

From USA Today ...

By the way, I disagree with the last line of the article. I think people not only respond better to things that they pay more for, they VALUE it more. When people get things for free, they almost treat what's there in front of them with contempt. It's such an odd reality of human behavior.

- Bill

Placebo study tests 'costlier is better' notion

By Rita Rubin, USA TODAY

Even when it comes to identical sugar pills, some people think a costly one works better than a cheap one, a letter in the Journal of the American Medical Association says today. The letter describes a study funded by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Researchers recruited 82 healthy paid volunteers and gave them a brochure about a new opioid pain reliever described as similar to codeine, only faster-acting.

Volunteers were randomly divided into two groups. One group was told the new drug cost $2.50 a pill; the other was told it had been marked down to 10 cents a pill, although no explanation was given.

The researchers applied light electric shocks to the volunteers' wrists to see how much pain they could tolerate. The researchers administered the shocks before and after the pill was taken and asked subjects to rate the pain.

Of the patients who took the full-price pill, 85% said they felt less pain afterward, compared with 61% of those who took the 10-cent pill. Because both groups received the same sugar pills, the power of the placebo effect in pain relief was illustrated.

"What we experience is partially reality and partially what we expect to experience," says the senior letter author, Dan Ariely, a Duke University behavioral economist whose new book, Predictably Irrational, explores why people make the choices they do. "The more practical point is, how do we give discounted pain medications without hurting people?"

Authors speculate that their findings might help explain why anti-inflammatory Vioxx and Celebrex were huge sellers, even though there was no evidence they were any more effective at relieving pain than generic naproxen or ibuprofen.

The placebo effect of generics might not be as powerful as that of expensive brand-name drugs because of their lower price tag and their lack of a pedigree, Ariely speculates.

And people might be less likely to continue taking generics as prescribed because they haven't spent much money on them, he says.

Perhaps people who can't afford to pay for expensive drugs might respond better to treatment if prices were eliminated from the equation and they received them free instead of at a reduced cost, Ariely says.
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TSDguy
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Post by TSDguy »

On a related note, if you've ever paid for "Airborne", the company set up a site where you can get a refund because it doesn't do anything... unless you believe it does.

Everyone I know is all about the stuff. I'm left in the 'cold' (ahem) because I already know it doesn't do anything, so the placebo effect doesn't work for me. :( I won't get everyone else sick by telling them they're just making "expensive pee".
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Okay, just for the sake of argument - -as it's clear neither of you are fans of alternative medicine or the concept of Chi - -please answer me this:

You both applaud the concept of the placebo effect, which is basically the subject's belief having a postive effect on illness or the psychosomatic impact of illness. How is this truly/fundamentally different from the concept of balancing energy, mind over matter, and energy flow within the body? In both cases, you have the mind exerting a powerful affect on the physical body.

The scientific versus alternative perspectives certainly have many differences in the explanations of how cause/effect are viewed/explained; however, the basic concept of mind-body connection is the same, is it not?

Please understand, I am asking out of curiousity of your response, nor do I mean any disrepect.

I should also mention that I, personally, believe that the body/mind are far more than medical or applied science can currently explain, and I believe there is room for both viewpoints. I also don't feel generational wisdom should be discounted simply because it's old, not yet proven, or phrased in....unfortunate terminology.

That's my .02, and it will be interesting to hear yours!
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
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Mary S
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Post by Mary S »

I think people not only respond better to things that they pay more for, they VALUE it more. When people get things for free, they almost treat what's there in front of them with contempt. It's such an odd reality of human behavior.
You know Bill if you change the word "people" to "kids and teenagers" you'd be able to write a best-selling parenting guide.... :wink:
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Good to see you, Mary. Vicki and I were talking about you just this week.

<Big Hug>

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Shana Moore wrote:
You both applaud the concept of the placebo effect, which is basically the subject's belief having a postive effect on illness or the psychosomatic impact of illness. How is this truly/fundamentally different from the concept of balancing energy, mind over matter, and energy flow within the body?
It's different in that the placebo effect is measureable in controlled trials (see above). Also with the example above, you could likely block that with naloxone, thus demonstrating the underlying mechanism. (See naloxone in Wikipedia.)
Shana Moore wrote:
In both cases, you have the mind exerting a powerful affect on the physical body.
True...

If the purveyors of such therapies participated in the right scientific trials, then the efficacy of such treatments could be assessed.
Shana Moore wrote:
The scientific versus alternative perspectives certainly have many differences in the explanations of how cause/effect are viewed/explained; however, the basic concept of mind-body connection is the same, is it not?
I don't like the science vs. alternative dichotomy.

The scientific method is designed to be blind to the pedigree of the therapy. Controlled trials exist to separate the placebo effect from any effect above and beyond that which is mind body.

The good news about the above study is that it begins to show that there are degrees of placebo effect. In this case, it was linked to the perceived monetary value of the therapy. When you think about it, that's a pretty amazing finding.
Shana Moore wrote:
I should also mention that I, personally, believe that the body/mind are far more than medical or applied science can currently explain
But it just did above, Shana, in a most elegant fashion!
Shana Moore wrote:
I believe there is room for both viewpoints.
Me? Not so much. Either it works, or it doesn't.

Again... People who believe in "alternative" therapies like to cast this net over "science" and claim it can't explain what they do. It isn't up to "science" to explain it. It's up to the people who create and use the therapy to do it - by any means that they find works.

Then it's up to the scientific method and good sound statistics objectively to measure whether something works or not, and how well. And what the side effects are. And whether or not the therapy in question is better than "standard practice."
Shana Moore wrote:
I also don't feel generational wisdom should be discounted simply because it's old, not yet proven, or phrased in....unfortunate terminology.
Old doesn't equal bad.
  • The bark of the willow tree was an ages-old therapy. Now we have aspirin.
  • Mold on wounds was an old therapy. Now we have penicillin.
  • Sticking needles in the body is an old therapy. Now some such therapies have been proven for pain management.
But old doesn't necessarily mean good either. And "used for ages" also isn't proof that something works. In modern medicine, many doctors use "traditional" therapies that turn out not to work.

"Tradition and folklore" in modern medicine is a pejorative label. These days if it isn't "evidence based", then it's considered bad medicine. That's particularly true where we have a serious health financing crisis today.

However...

There are still plenty of "old" remedies that work.
  • Ice is God's gift to the dojo. It's cheap, it's easy to get, and it works like magic on any number of dojo "owies".
  • Physical therapy also works.
  • Visualization works.
  • Belief in self and process works.
  • Breathing exercises work.
  • A good diet works.
  • Meditation (walking or seated) works.
  • Etc.
No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. :wink:

- Bill
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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Bill Glasheen wrote:
It's different in that the placebo effect is measureable in controlled trials [...] If the purveyors of such therapies participated in the right scientific trials, then the efficacy of such treatments could be assessed.
Fortunately, for those interested in alternative medicines or herbal treatments, more attention to dosage, safety and research seems to be a growing trend. In 2004, the European Union issued a Traditional Herbal Medicinal Products Directive, to begin the process of regulating and assuring consistent safety and dispensing of herbal medicines. It's very broad directive, but it's a start. (http://www.behindthemedicalheadlines.co ... -directive)

As you noted, several of these "traditional" treatments are now believed beneficial or have been sources for modern medicines (willow: aspirin, mold: pencillin). What's equally exciting is that several traditional herbs are being researched, now, for their potentials in treating disease. Tumeric (and one of it's components, curcumin) are showing promise in recent UCLA and University of Texas research for potential treatments of cancer, alzheimer's, etc. (http://www.bri.ucla.edu/bri_weekly/news_060206.asp )
Again, it's a start.
Bill Glasheen wrote:
The scientific method is designed to be blind to the pedigree of the therapy. [...] Again... People who believe in "alternative" therapies like to cast this net over "science" and claim it can't explain what they do. [...] Then it's up to the scientific method and good sound statistics objectively to measure whether something works or not, and how well. And what the side effects are. And whether or not the therapy in question is better than "standard practice." [...]Old doesn't equal bad.[...]But old doesn't necessarily mean good either. [...]"Tradition and folklore" in modern medicine is a pejorative label. These days if it isn't "evidence based", then it's considered bad medicine. That's particularly true where we have a serious health financing crisis today.
Okay, I agree with much of what you say, and you make some fine points. I somewhat disagree with the comment that "the scientific method is is designed to be blind to the pedigree of the therapy". I agree that is the intent and purpose of the scientific method, but you, yourself, state that "tradition and folklore" in modern medicine is a pejorative label. The scientific method, as it is practiced today, has a built in skepticism toward traditional methods, and I think that has created a distance between two healing methods that is unfortunate. That also makes it more difficult to obtain serious funding by medical establishments, unversities, etc. for serious clinical trials.

Trials actualy have been done on many herbs, but the main problems and lack of established recognition are due to small trail size and inconsistent dosage, which is further hampered and complicated by inconsistent regulation of over the coutner herbs. I, personally, believe a lot of these problems are based on a difficulty to obtain funding for research into "traditional and folklore" treatments. It is the very health funding crisis you've mentioned that has finally resulted in a second look at these traditional treatments. They're not glamourous, but they could be very inexpensive to make....BINGO!

The point I'm trying to make is that, IMHO, there is far more commonality in traditional and modern medicine - - as well as worth in both - - than either side is willing to admit. For too long, science has turned up it's nose and not taken a second look at many traditional therapies. To be completely fair, many alternative pracitioners are not wiling to go through the rigor of scientific trials and so dismiss it as impossible to understand what they do.

For some things, that might be true, simply because we don't understand what the human body, itself, is capable of doing...but that's another, more philosphical discussion, for a later time. I believe studies have been done on mediating Buddhist monks, and they have found a difference in how the brain works via imaging, but they don't understand what it means. We'll put that under the heading of "more things in heaven and earth...."

For many things, though, it's simply a matter of funding and investing the time/effort. The above current research shows that we are finally taking a look into some of those "traditional" medicines with some exciting possibilities
This might show that many (no, not all) have some very good basis for therr "claims". Are there still dangerous and ineffective medicines out there? Most certainly! Just as there are some dangerous and ineffective trained doctors. Let's agree that we would like less of both! :lol: :wink:

So, this long post is basically to agree, in part, with your comments, and most definately on not throwing the baby out with the bath water!

Thank you for an interesting discussion!
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Shana
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Post by TSDguy »

Shana Moore wrote:The scientific method, as it is practiced today, has a built in skepticism toward...
The scientific method has built in skepticism towards EVERYTHING.

As far as how it's practiced, the study isn't going to go anywhere if it's not done properly and peer-reviewed.

The great thing is the scientific method is extremely straight forward. Anyone can apply it to anything.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Shana Moore wrote:

I somewhat disagree with the comment that "the scientific method is is designed to be blind to the pedigree of the therapy". I agree that is the intent and purpose of the scientific method, but you, yourself, state that "tradition and folklore" in modern medicine is a pejorative label. The scientific method, as it is practiced today, has a built in skepticism toward traditional methods, and I think that has created a distance between two healing methods that is unfortunate.
It is human nature to have bias. It is actualy healthy to be skeptical. The purpose of the scientific method is to keep the human element out of the assessment of clinical efficacy. When done well - and combined with the peer review process - it's the best anyone has for separating the wheat (what works) from the chaffe (smoke and mirrors).

Being a good scientist doesn't mean you throw away your opinions. In fact a UVa researcher (in predictive modeling) I just listened to recently made it a point that we SHOULD bring our personal expectations into play when doing the art of predictive modeling. (The same would be true of the scientific method.) Then after we apply an objective process and find something contrary to what we believe, we know that we have stumbled on something that is truly extraordinary. Such is the "structure of scientific revolutions." (To borrow a title from Thomas Kuhn's book)

I've always welcomed the "chi-sters" in martial arts to come forward with their special magic. No scientist becomes famous by proving a negative. You get your ticket to Stockholm only when you discover something new. If there was anything to a fantastical claim, it would be in my best interest to prove it and associate myself with its discovery. Alas my suitcase has stayed pretty much on this side of the pond. :cry: :wink:
Shana Moore wrote:

Trials actualy have been done on many herbs, but the main problems and lack of established recognition are due to small trail size and inconsistent dosage, which is further hampered and complicated by inconsistent regulation of over the coutner herbs. I, personally, believe a lot of these problems are based on a difficulty to obtain funding for research into "traditional and folklore" treatments. It is the very health funding crisis you've mentioned that has finally resulted in a second look at these traditional treatments. They're not glamourous, but they could be very inexpensive to make....BINGO!
Well there's both yin and yang in that argument.

Merke and Pfizer aren't going to throw a lot of money in research on something that isn't going to increase the wealth of their shareholders. If you show an herb to work, great... You've done something for humanity. But you've also wasted a lot of shareholder money.

That being said, there's also the other issue you mentioned. Go into any herb shop and buyer beware. There's little in the way of regulation, standardizing of the active ingredients (whatever they are), guarantees of purity, etc.

The win-win comes from the drug companies or medical device manufacturers discovering something that they can improve, and being able to turn a profit on their work. And believe me, that happens. Big drug companies actually have research divisions doing things like reviewing the bioactive components of rain forest plants, understanding and improving old therapies (like heart defibrillation), etc.
Shana Moore wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that, IMHO, there is far more commonality in traditional and modern medicine - - as well as worth in both - - than either side is willing to admit.
Actually that is my point, although it gets lost at times. Therapies work, or they don't work. Every therapy needs to be measured by the same objective process - a basic fairness issue. And consumers need protection from bad medicine.

But another point is being missed here as well.

Mind/body effects are real. We who practice the Eastern arts allegedly are trying to get better at those effects than the average person on the street. The average martial artist is basically someone who wants control of their life. That control goes outside the boundaries of using your Blue Cross and Blue Shield card, or getting a belt of the right color around our waists.

Too much of our lives is about what we can get in a pill or with a certificate. When it comes to living well or escaping harm, what matters in the end is what's going on inside. We can't rely on our tools. They are there instead to facilitate us on our own journeys.

And so there is one element of commonality. ;)

- Bill
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Post by TSDguy »

Two of my favorite people (well one, in this clip) demonstrate mind over matter:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MzjoKhBklYg&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1b3MqiX8&feature=related

Sugar pills!

Edit: Just because it mentions the scientific method:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mJP_l1OK8NM&feature=related
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Wonderful clips. Thanks for the entertainment! And I am a big fan of both James Randi (who helped us on our our "empty force" evaluation) and Penn & Teller.

But you know... There are two sides to this coin. How hard is it for your doctor to have a little bedside manner to go along with that treatment? If it will make a difference - which the article and these clips clearly show - then why not? And how hard is it for a waiter, waitress, or food server to bring a positive attitude to their work?

Some people even make money teaching it. Here's a clip that shows an average day at the world famous Pike's Fish Market in Seattle.

..... Fish! Trailer

Now if my doctor had only given me dinner and a movie before that digital rectal exam... :shocked!:

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Here's a worthwhile treatment. The outcomes speak for themselves.

- Bill
A Touch of Grace:
Massage Therapy
Aids Retired Nuns


Bronx Nursing Home
Finds Drug Alternative;
'Oh, This Is Heaven'


By LUCETTE LAGNADO
March 10, 2008; Page A1


BRONX, N.Y. -- Here at the Providence Rest nursing home, which caters mostly to retired nuns and devout Roman Catholics, Harold Packman has developed an important expertise: Giving massages to women who may have spent a lifetime shying away from this kind of physical contact.

Women like Sister Mary Austin Cantwell. Recently, Sister Cantwell, 67 years old and wearing some traditional vestments, rolled in on her motorized scooter for an appointment. Mr. Packman gingerly lifted the hem of the nun's black skirt and started rubbing her arthritic knee.


"Oh, this is heaven," Sister Cantwell exclaimed as he applied cream to her afflicted joint. "I am in heaven."

Sister Cantwell is a bit of an exception: She lets Mr. Packman make contact directly with her knee without any intervening garment. Many other patients are more vigilant, arriving in long dresses, support hose, and bulky long-sleeved sweaters that are not to be disturbed.

Providence Rest hired Mr. Packman, a licensed massage therapist, as part of an unusual experiment to cut its use of antipsychotic drugs. These controversial drugs -- which are often used as "chemical restraints" to sedate agitated patients -- have set off a national debate over whether nursing homes are misusing them. Newer versions, known as "atypical" antipsychotics, can increase the risk of death in elderly people with Alzheimer's disease, the Food and Drug Administration has warned.

Providence Rest's alternative treatments sound like something from a pricey spa, not a nursing home in the Bronx. Instead of antipsychotics, it has developed regimens involving aromatherapy, long, soothing bubble baths, use of medicines thought to have fewer, less severe side-effects -- and Mr. Packman's rubdowns.

Startling Results

The results are startling. Nationwide, some 30% of nursing-home patients are put on antipsychotics, according to federal data, but Providence Rest has cut its own use down to 2% or 3%. That's the lowest rate of any nursing home in New York, and among the lowest in the country, according to the New York Association of Homes & Services for the Aging.

"Harold is a very big factor" in that success, says Jocelyn Ronquillo, Providence Rest's medical director and leader of its anti-antipsychotics drive. When she arrived at the home, usage of antipsychotic drugs was at about 21%, Dr. Ronquillo says.


Eighty-five year old Harold Packman has a massage therapy practice that caters mostly to nuns and other Catholics. WSJ's Lucette Lagnado speaks to him about what keeps him motivated and his dedication to other geriatrics.

Mr. Packman's strongest weapon in persuading clients to acquiesce to his touch may be the fact that he's as old as -- or older than -- most of the women he treats. "There are advantages to looking like I do," says Mr. Packman, who is 85, although with his sprightly gait and shock of white hair doesn't look a day over 80.

"Patients say, 'You have no idea how much pain I have,' and I say, 'Oh yes I do.' "

Providence Rest, which is run by an order of nuns, mainly cares for lay Italian Catholic women and some retired sisters, though there are a few males and non-Christians. All residents have crucifixes in their rooms. Many hail from the old country.

Patients arrive for their massages in wheelchairs and never disrobe or even lie down. At the most, some might merely let him lift up a trouser leg.

No matter. Mr. Packman, who has been a massage therapist for nearly a half-century, insists he can get the job done while respecting the boundaries. To put patients at ease, he banters like a borscht-belt tummler, delivering a stream of corny old jokes.

"What is such a rotten joint doing in a nice kid like you?" he says to Sister Cantwell's knee. She chuckles, even though she's heard that one before -- at her last massage.

Back when Providence Rest went looking for a massage therapist with a specialty in geriatrics, Mr. Packman was the only one it could find. He joined in 2002 as the home began testing its alternative approach to managing patient pain and agitation. Among other things, Providence Rest substitutes antidepressants and Alzheimer's drugs for antipsychotics, believing them to have fewer, less-drastic side-effects.

On a typical day Mr. Packman, who works part time, might see as many as 12 to 15 patients.

"Rosa, buon giorno," he calls out as Rosa Rizzo, 93, arrives bundled up in a flowing dress and a woolen sweater that she won't remove. In fact, she won't let him so much as roll up her sleeves, despite severe pain in her arm and shoulder.

The Italian-born widow is more typical of the women Mr. Packman works with. "She had a very formal upbringing, as an Italian girl in an Italian family," he explains.

"Rosa, are you going to let me take off your sweater so I can work on your arm?" he asks.

"No," she replies curtly, waving him away.

Undaunted, Mr. Packman takes her arm -- woolen sleeve and all -- and proceeds to loosen the muscles. Then, he massages her fully clothed shoulders. "You don't want to take off your clothes? Fine. I go with it," he says.

Anyway, he says, young people today are too quick to bare all. In his private practice, "a lot of them don't hesitate, they take their whole nightie off," he says. "I tell them, 'I don't need all that.' "

The Last Frontier

But at Providence Rest, he says, modesty is the last frontier. The elderly, even patients with dementia, finds ways to make it clear they don't want to be touched in certain areas. And some patients simply refuse to have a massage by a man, so he has trained female assistants to handle those cases.

Still, there are a few patients who are willing to let their inhibitions, and perhaps an article of clothing, slip away. Among them is Helen Filardo, 89, who has been receiving regular treatment for soreness in her back, arms, legs, and even, lately, her hands.

As she arrives, she cheerfully announces: "I have to strip." So with some gentle assistance from Mr. Packman, she peels off her sweater and lets him massage her bare shoulder and back.

Write to Lucette Lagnado at lucette.lagnado@wsj.com
- WSJ
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