Goju-Ryu Tensho form

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting...

When I do (and teach) Uechi Sanchin, my paradigm is that the hand is just a "thing". As I see it, you're holding the fingers firm just to be mindful that you must keep the (whatever) weapon strong from elbow to finger while relaxing many other muscles in the extending arm. So I'm not really worried about my Sanchin nukite hitting something.

I'm with you two about using a nukite in application with a bit of whipping or snake-like mindset. There are actually straight thrust nukites (mostly hidden) and whipping/raking finger nukites in the more advanced kata where the attacker is thinking about getting the hand back quickly.

Loved the video of Shisochin, Jim. Talk about a walk down memory lane... It hurts to think that I've forgotten that form so badly. But it did look familiar enough (and simple enough) that I could probably pick that back up again from the video. I did however like my instructor's cadence and delivery in his forms. Anyhow, I see your point in this kata. But I think of Shisochin as a different kind of form vs. what you're doing in Sanchin of either the Goju or Uechi variety.

FWIW, my Goju instructor spent an extended period of time studying with Kimo Wall in-between Gosei Yamaguchi and other Goju notables. But that's a very long story...

- Bill

[Glenn]

"Kingainoon" (aka Kingai Ryu) has been mentioned as the Chinese predecessor of Goju Ryu, just as "Pangainoon" has been mentioned as the Chinese predecessor of Uechi Ryu. Kingainoon and Pangainoon are usually referred to as sister styles, but both suffer from the same issue in that these names are not currently known in China so it is unclear what exactly the terms refer to. Patrick McCarthy and others have proposed that Higashionna's Kingai teacher (Ru Ru Ko) was actually Whooping Crane founder Xie Zhongzing. But the terminology handed down leaves open many possibilities.

The Matayoshi Kingai Ryu clip reminds me of his demonstrations of Hakutsuru kata on his videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encHYcCQgxc
Definite similarities between the two forms.
Jim, given Matayoshi's reputation for altering his kata when he was being video-taped, how accurate is the presentation of his Kingai Ryu kata in the YouTube clip you linked?

[MikeK]

Bill,
One thing I noticed after thinking about it is I do the whipping strike to the eyes as a counter almost at extreme range and usually from off center. Probably because I'm working off a flinch or just because I'm doing it while getting off line. As a cheap shot opener it's more likely come either from below the line of sight and straight in, or straight in off of the hands up, palm out "passive"/"defensive" posture. I find it easier to deliver with less telegraphing if I use both hands.

The armpit and throat strikes are always thrusts and done when in close. Sometimes they're more of a press to the armpit and certain parts of the neck.when used as a control. I like using that method to the points under the jaw line and into those front facing muscles in the neck.

I'll get back to work and let you guys get back to the kata.

[GojuMaster]

Bill,

Glad you liked the Shisochin video. That's me

If you click my Youtube profile, you can find a video of me performing Tensho at a demonstration in Malaysia a couple months back.

Russ

Interesting...


Loved the video of Shisochin, Jim. Talk about a walk down memory lane... It hurts to think that I've forgotten that form so badly. But it did look familiar enough (and simple enough) that I could probably pick that back up again from the video. I did however like my instructor's cadence and delivery in his forms. Anyhow, I see your point in this kata. But I think of Shisochin as a different kind of form vs. what you're doing in Sanchin of either the Goju or Uechi variety.

FWIW, my Goju instructor spent an extended period of time studying with Kimo Wall in-between Gosei Yamaguchi and other Goju notables. But that's a very long story...

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Bill,

Glad you liked the Shisochin video. That's me

If you click my Youtube profile, you can find a video of me performing Tensho at a demonstration in Malaysia a couple months back.

Russ

Interesting...


Loved the video of Shisochin, Jim. Talk about a walk down memory lane... It hurts to think that I've forgotten that form so badly. But it did look familiar enough (and simple enough) that I could probably pick that back up again from the video. I did however like my instructor's cadence and delivery in his forms. Anyhow, I see your point in this kata. But I think of Shisochin as a different kind of form vs. what you're doing in Sanchin of either the Goju or Uechi variety.

FWIW, my Goju instructor spent an extended period of time studying with Kimo Wall in-between Gosei Yamaguchi and other Goju notables. But that's a very long story...

- Bill

Hi Russ,

I forgot that you were a member of this forum. Hope all is well. BTW, you will see your Tensho performance posted on page 1 of this thread.

[Dana Sheets]

What is most interesting in Matayoshi's form, to me, is the way that stances similar to those in Uechi are used to deliver power in different directions. Also the inside/out and outside in power generation he demonstrates shows a different and very interesting approach to full body coordination and power generation. If Pat has the rights and puts that video up for sale I'll be one of the first in line to buy it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Dana

Great minds think alike!

Please articulate what you mean by "inside/out and outside in power generation."

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Outside in:

~34 seconds in. He does a double...something...towards the centerline.

Watch his back instead of his hands.

[Kuma-de]

Outside in:

~34 seconds in. He does a double...something...towards the centerline.

Watch his back instead of his hands.

Dana,

How's things? I still haven't found my video of Kume Hakutsuru yet.

Those 3 strikes @ .34 are Ko (wrist) uchi and are meant to resemble the head of the crane in a pecking motion.

Cheers!

[Bill Glasheen]

I agree, Jim, that those are wrist movements. They are crane (or mantis). It's a variation on Tensho moves, or our own koi no shippo. These same moves are in the Fuzhou Suparinpei I do, which comes from the same general area.

However...

I'm wondering if Dana isn't talking about Matayoshi's back. Are you talking about how he makes his back alternately concave and convex, Dana?

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Hi Jim,
No worries. I still haven't called someone who was going to tell me more about the form. We'll all get there one day!

Bill,
Yes - in the video it looks as if he is "making" his back more concave and convex.

I think there is an important dynamic going on between the spine and the ribcage - two things that have lots of moving parts.

Spine/ribcage/breath pressure--the manipulation of all 3 = an expression of power. Of course you can't remove from those dynamics the connection to the ground via the pelvis/legs.

What I connect this to in my training is something Mr. Thompson said years ago about power up from the ground and down from the body.

You have up from the ground and down from the body (weight)
You have outward pressure from the breath and inward pressure from the ribs (intercostal muscles) and core.
You have forward and backwards from the legs/pelvis/spine

So in short, in that short strike are what I think to be some very complex power generation dynamics.

[Kuma-de]

Outside in:

~34 seconds in. He does a double...something...towards the centerline.

Watch his back instead of his hands.

Hi Dana,

Here is Kusano Sensei performing Hakucho kata. It is taken from a different vantage point and you have a nice opportunity to see the techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVdNiZUxmc

Yoroshiku,

[Kuma-de]

Here is an aged Seikichi Toguchi Sensei (b. May 20, 1917 in Naha City, Okinawa, Japan - d. August 31, 1998 in Tokyo)performing Tensho kata a few years prior to his passing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2E6X_mzMNw

Interestingly enough he studied w/ Seiko Higa Sensei for over 30 years and Miyagi Chojun Sensei for 25 yrs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikichi_Toguchi

[Bill Glasheen]

My shodan certificate in Goju Ryu comes from Seikichi Toguchi's Shorei Kai organization. My nidan, BTW, comes from Dr. Steven King's Tenchi Kan organization.

A few comments:

1) Although there is no sound, you can see the sniffing and hissing in his breathing when they do a closeup of his face. IMO this is about what you want. Not too little, and not too much. No walk in the park, but no asthma attack.

2) He shows considerable age in this photo, as evidenced by a slight wobbliness in his Sanchin gate. For those who think this kind of breathing is bad for your health, he's almost 80 doing this performance. Not bad for a fellow living dangerously.

3) I'm still struck by the variability from practitioner to practitioner in the performance of both the circle moves as well as the wrist moves. Actually... it gives me more confidence to do Tensho the way I think it should be done.

Good stuff!

Great performance of Hachuko, by the way. What a treat it is to watch these very old and significant forms.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

My shodan certificate in Goju Ryu comes from Seikichi Toguchi's Shorei Kai organization. My nidan, BTW, comes from Dr. Steven King's Tenchi Kan organization.

A few comments:

1) Although there is no sound, you can see the sniffing and hissing in his breathing when they do a closeup of his face. IMO this is about what you want. Not too little, and not too much. No walk in the park, but no asthma attack.

2) He shows considerable age in this photo, as evidenced by a slight wobbliness in his Sanchin gate. For those who think this kind of breathing is bad for your health, he's almost 80 doing this performance. Not bad for a fellow living dangerously.

3) I'm still struck by the variability from practitioner to practitioner in the performance of both the circle moves as well as the wrist moves. Actually... it gives me more confidence to do Tensho the way I think it should be done.

Good stuff!

Great performance of Hachuko, by the way. What a treat it is to watch these very old and significant forms.

- Bill

Wow!! Steven King does martial arts too!! I just thought of him as a loony author!!